How can we do it?

[carolaa]

I found the last 2 paragraphs of this editorial particularly interesting, and it leaves me wondering how a capitalistic society can survive if it focuses on efficiency and renewables rather than consumption. Any thoughts?

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080716_dont_drink_the_nuclear_kool_aid/

[there buster]

Quote:

Any thoughts?

none in that article

It's quite funny, really. Less than twenty years after the demise of the great planned economies of Communist Europe, we still have people wondering if free market societies can survive.

Freedom really frightens people.

[John317]

Basically probably because they don't remember or haven't studied what happened. Today a person can graduate from high school or even from some colleges without having studied the history of things like the Revolutionary War or the Cold War.

[Dr. Shane]

A properly regulated capitalistic society is the best economic system.

[carolaa]

A properly regulated capitalistic society is the best economic system.

I just wonder if that really sustainable. It does not promote the idea of conservation. It's all about consuming, which is parasitic. No matter how regulated it is, it seems to me that capitalism can only end in the trashing and destruction of the earth - sooner or later.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Shane

A properly regulated capitalistic society is the best economic system.

I just wonder if that really sustainable. It does not promote the idea of conservation. It's all about consuming, which is parasitic. No matter how regulated it is, it seems to me that capitalism can only end in the trashing and destruction of the earth - sooner or later.

Capitalism generally leads to greater personal liberties. It doesn't mean that it is a perfect system. A perfect system does not exist.

If anyone thinks that socialistic or Marxist or "communist" government do better at conservationist issues, let them check out how the USSR and Eastern Europe did between 1945 and 1990 or how China is doing today. There is some of the worst pollution in the world.

Under capitalism and democracy, people are free to move in the direction of conservation through representative government. Under dictatorships, which is usually what socialism results in, only socialist or communist party members determine policy.

[olger]

God's injunction to be fruitful and multiply was the last thing that they would consider a blessing if over population was a concern of God's.

God's promise to Abraham that his seed would be as the sands of the sea was hardly a blessing to his herdsmen & Lot's who felt that the land had outstripped the ability of the land to sustain them. Funny thing is, God is right. More people means more productivity, and modern environmentalists (not suggesting you are one) think more like Lot than they do Abraham.

Erlich's formula is fundamentally flawed in that he sees man as a consumer & polluter only, and not as a producer.

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."

rejoice always,

oG

[carolaa]

I'm not saying that capitalism is the only way to trash the earth. But it seems to be the one focused on consumption, that couldn't exist without consumption. Somehow I can't believe that is the way God intended us to live, or how He intended for us to take care of the earth.

[Dr. Shane]

A well-regulated capitalistic society will take care of the Earth because it is in its own self interest to do so. The fact that the US has the EPA is proof of that. The EPA is a regulatory agency which prevents individuals or companies from destroying the environment. If one looks at the history of the USSR and China they will discover there was a lot of environmental damage under the communist governments.

[fccool]

I don't think it's an issue of Capitalism or Communism. Both are by far not ideal. One falls due to greed, and the other due to tyranny. The fact is that late overspent capitalism is based on Keynsian phylosophy of "in the long run we are all dead". Which means... enjoy it while it lasts. We are not brought up thinking about limits and conservation. Limits and conservation are inhibitors to profits, and profits drive capitalism.

Basically, I would say that bad capitalism (not the one that Shane is describing... and the one that does not and will not exist) is the one that is destroying the earth right now. Men were created with idea of self reliance and independence. I.E. they would grow their own food, and others will not eat of it (this is the way it will be in new earth). The industrial revolution flocked people to large cities where they invented variety of "services" and "products" to serve as wants. Then the marketing comes around to tell you exactly why you should want these products. So we have a specialized sector to grow our food, which it tries to stuff as much as possible produce per acre, and as many as possible chickens in the cages and milk from the cows. As a result you get the system where food quality suffers. It's an unsustainable formula. People are crammed in the cities instead of learning how to be self sufficient.

I can guarantee you that if people would be more self sufficient, they would be less wasteful... because self sufficiency comes at a cost of your own labor and not the labor of others. This is something that neither communism not capitalism can supply. Actually, it's closer to anarchy... the good kind of course... not the one that is running around exploding stuff.

[Dr. Shane]

I think communist countries have had and continue to do more environmental damage that the capitalistic countries with environmental regulations. And communism certainly was not free from greed. Greed is part of this sinful world. If we try to form a type of government which is not based a greed it is doomed to failure so long as it exists in a sinful world. So the key is to have a form of government which uses individual greed for the betterment of society as a whole. That is what a well-regualted capitalist society is all about.

In America the key to becoming wealthy (which is driven by individual greed) is producing a product product or service which can be affordable by the masses. Henery Ford did this with the Model-T. Bill Gates did this with Microsoft Windows. Sam Walton did this with Wal-Mart. All of these people raised the standard of living for society as a whole because of their own personal greed and drive for success.

[fccool]

Shane, there are two sides to that story. Capitalism panders to greed, just as the communism and nationalism panders to emotional ideology. To say that the US economy is well regulated makes me laugh. It is hardly in favor of people, but in favor of who makes the most money for the country. Look at the legal system... people who have the most money will usually win the case.

Look at the state of the financial system, people's greed of trying to keep up with the neighbors brought this country to it's knees right now. They are overspent beyond means, broke with now way to pay all of the debt back. On the other side that debt was made out of nothing by the bankers who are also motivated by the same good old greed and "opportunity". Yes, the greed does raise the level of life for some, yet it strangles others... like third world. I understand that their level is somewhat better than some years ago, yet It's not in the interest of the "owners" to raise their level of life... may it be their governments, or the corporations hiring them. Let's face it... it's about business, and there are seldomly morality and emotions involved. The bigger the corporations.... Disney.... Microsoft, Enron...., Nike.... the less moral it seems to be. I think capitalism is IDEAL in moderation (small businesses), and that's where the days when America really prospered. When they made their own products and actually worked for it. The dollar hegemony was the beginning of the freeloading and thus beginning of the end, because nothing is free. The future generations will have to pay for it.

If you don't see that Walmart and their likeness are doing you a favor by flooding the country with cheap goods and destroying the small business manufacturing base... well I guess I can't have anything more to say.

[Dr. Shane]

In the United States, the government employs 16 million employees. That is a huge bureaucracy. The US is a well-regulated society.

There is no perfect legal system. Is anyone suggesting that peasants living in communist counties receive greater justice than the poor in America?

Trying to "keep up with the Jone's" has not caused the nation to be brought to its knees. Consumerism is a good force in a healthy economy. The motive behind an individual's consumerism may be sinful but not necessarily. The currect crisis has been brought on by a few factors. Real estate speculators, questionable banking practices and the falling dollar are among them - consumerism is not.

Business is good. Business is not a bad guy. Business provides jobs, health-care and products and services we all depend on. Unregulated business has taken advantage of both workers and consumers however with proper regulation big business is an asset to society.

The people that don't like Wal-Mart are those that are comfortably living in the middle class. Wal-Mart has done more to help the poor than 40 years of the Great Society welfare programs. I grew up poor. We lived off from food stamps and the welfare dime. We didn't have a car or TV and for a while we didn't even have a refrigerator. The only new pair of shoes I ever got was when the local church took me out and bought me a pair for Sabbath. We only shopped at the used clothing stores. Even my toys were used. Now, because of Wal-Mart, poor children have new shoes and new toys and senior-citizens can buy cheap prescriptions. Wal-Mart has increased the standard of living for more poor Americans than anything else done in the history of the nation.

[fccool]

US is an OVER-regulated society... no well regulated. I do not suggest that Communism is any more just than any other system out there. I think that the common law system is the best one we've had yet.

I certainly recognize that Business is good and business provides many great things. I'm not anti-business, I'm anti-mindless consumerism which is without thought of any consequences. Consumerism has much to do with the current problems that America is facing right now... particularly debt based consumerism. I think that buying products based on real growth (not the speculation of the future growth) is bases for the healthy economy. It's debt based consumerism that completely obliterated dollar, and financial system of USA. Banking is only a part of the problem, because these people only dangle the carrots in front of people. People are the ones who are biting because they can't wait and save.

But what really makes me furious is that people who do save will end up paying for the bail outs of those who can't... under this "well regulated" economic system. It's already started to happen.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy buying cheap goods from Walmart as any other guy. Yet I realize that enjoying Walmart means paying the price of almost non-existing industrial sector in US, and disproportionate service sector. No economy can survive solely from service /and trade sectors. You have to make something of value. Don't you agree?

So what we have now is scaring me. Let's look at the following...

US 2006 GDP numbers - agriculture (0.9%), industry (20.6%), services (78.5%)

Inflation (CPI based, the real is most likely much higher now) 5.0%, meaning that even if you invest your money in steady CD... it would hardly cover the inflation loss.

Now compare it to China.

agriculture 11.7%)

industry (48.9%)

services (39.3%)

The point being... US right now is a service based economy that runs based on borrowing because the world believes that dollar is strong. That's why Walmart can exist and prosper, driving out the local manufacturing competition. The moment dollar will take a huge plunge, the Walmart will disappear and China will sell elsewhere because they have manufacturing sector to re-adjust. US will not be able to financially sustain itself because flipping burgers is meaningless if there are no burgers to flip. And right now flipping burgets will get you a better life style than of a Chinese worker that works overtime to supply those cheap Walmart goods. I has nothing to do with real economy, and everything to do with perceived economy. And the curtains are now being pulled back on the dollar, and all people see is paper.

[Dr. Shane]

I agree that consumerism based on debt is not good however that is different than saying consumerism is not good. As much as the national debt and deficits are talked about, I believe personal debt in the US is a bigger problem than national debt. This is a problem that the Adventist church can do something about. Non-Adventist ministries, like Crown Financial Ministries, teach believers how to use money responsibly. If the Adventist church did the same we would probably see the amount given to tithes and offerings increase in the long term.

The GDP figures are somewhat misleading because the values of the services offered in the US are worth so much more than the value of the services offered in China while our manufactured and agricultural goods are worth basically the same. For example, a doctor or lawyer's services in the US are worth more in that they get paid more than a doctor or lawyer in China. Same goes for a mechanic or barber. A manufactured good is worth relatively the same and often times less in the US. Generators, televisions, clothing and other such things are often sold both on the wholesale and retail markets for less in the US than in other countries. (Which is due a lot to our "Wal-Mart" system and transportation infrastructure) Agriculture is similar in that a bushel of corn in the US has a comparative price to a bushel of corn in China. So part of what we see is the service sector of the US economy is worth so much more because the people in that sector make so much money compared to their counterparts in China.

The reality of the world marketplace has to be accepted and embraced. The world isn't a big as it once was. Even recently Boeing came out with an even larger jetliner and now they have plans to make new ones that are more comfortable and will diminish jet-lag. Flying from Los Angeles to Hong Kong today is what taking the train from New York to Chicago once was. The fact that America and the rest of the world has become so dependent on international trade should mean that war on a massive scale as we saw in WW2 is less likely. The dollar has fallen, in a large part, because of the Federal Reserve keeping interest rates low, and our increasing trade deficit driven by foreign oil.

[fccool]

I totally agree with you about the education part of it .I think it is VERY important for a church to have wealth seminars and training sessions. By wealth seminars I don't mean "finance and investment" seminars. Yes, there is time and place for it, but I don't think that it is a subject for family and churches. I think it's unwise to teach finance to people who have no basic understanding of budget and saving. Unfortunatly, we have 0 such in our church for the years I've been there, and these are the times that we need these the most. Most of the financial talks that I've heard were boiled down to "tithe and God will bless you" type of talks, and while it's true, it might now be the most sane approach to take in our debt based society.

Bible has much to tell about debt free life... some people think it's impossible, but it's a matter of discernment between "needs" and "wants", and people's view of happiness and comfort. 50 years ago these were defined differently.

[fccool]

I think I'd like to add that I fully support credit expansion BY MEANS OF BUSINESS LOANS. Unbacked consumer credit expansion in any case will end in disaster, as it is an artificial way of stimulating supply/demand relationship.

And currently, irresponsible landing/borrowing is cutting into businesses being cut from getting the liquidity that they need to function.

Banks struggling to recover from multibillion-dollar losses on real estate are curtailing loans to American businesses, depriving even healthy companies of money for expansion and hiring.

Two vital forms of credit used by companies — commercial and industrial loans from banks, and short-term “commercial paper” not backed by collateral — collectively dropped almost 3 percent over the last year, to $3.27 trillion from $3.36 trillion, according to Federal Reserve data. That is the largest annual decline since the credit tightening that began with the last recession, in 2001.

The scarcity of credit has intensified the strains on the economy by withholding capital from many companies, just as joblessness grows and consumers pull back from spending in the face of high gas prices, plummeting home values and mounting debt.

“The second half of the year is shot,” said Michael T. Darda, chief economist at the trading firm MKM Partners in Greenwich, Conn., who was until recently optimistic that the economy would continue expanding. “Access to capital and credit is essential to growth. If that access is restrained or blocked, the economic system takes a hit.”

Companies that rely on credit are now delaying and canceling expansion plans as they struggle to secure finance.