Flip Flop

[Woody]

Obama has 'flip flopped' and will now support Off-Shore Drilling for Oil.

While I am glad that he has done this. I think it shows how little you can trust him to support the policies that you support.

[John317]

Wow-- we sure think alike on this stuff. Now if only.... I know, hopeless cause.

[Woody]

[Neil D]

You know, CoAspen, I was thinking the same thing...

now if only.... Oh well...

Quote:

Wow-- we sure think alike on this stuff. Now if only.... I know, hopeless cause.

What? You want me to change???

Ooooo, guys you ask for too much!!!!

[Dr. Shane]

Obama may have simply changed his position because he sees it is the will of the people. He is likely to be a President that governs with his finger in the wind. There is a school of thought that believes politicians should govern according to the will of the people. Today that means governing by polls. Another school of thought is that politicians should govern on principle even when those principles may not be popular.

[Dr. Shane]

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if you are not governing by the will of those that elected you, should you be trusted? Should you govern in a manner that is best for the country or for your party politics?

This is a deep topic and not one with a simple answer. The two views are really two ways to approach democratic government.

Should politicians govern by the will of those that elected them?

Let's consider that. If a large majority of white racists elect the politicians should the politicians pass laws that oppress minorities? Or should the politicians pass laws based on their own principles of equality of all men?

How about another one? If a group of working class workers elect the politicians should the politicians pass laws the seize the private property of the rich and make it into government property that can be used by the working-class? Or should the politicians pass laws that protect private property rights and thus encourage investment which in theory stimulates growth and creates more jobs for the working class?

Sometimes what is best for the country isn't the expressed will of the people.

When the will of the people is to put to death the Sabbath keepers should the politicians follow the will of the people or uphold religious liberty based on principle?

Not such a cut-and-dry topic.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Know why the campaign is heating up? McCain has hired some people from C Rove's staff....

The fact is that Obama tried to label Republicans in general as racists and McCain has called him on it. That is a good thing. If McCain makes racist comments he should be called on them. But that is not what Obama is doing. Obama is claiming that Republicans WILL (future tense) use race to prevent him from becoming President. Obama is making a preemptive strike at McCain using the race card. He should be called on that regardless who is working for McCain.

[Bravus]

McCain has changed his position on *far* more issues in the past 2 years than Obama has. I don't have the time (I'm on dialup right now) or really care enough to search and collate it for you, but any objective analysis will show that this is the case. I never bought that 'flip-flop' was a sensible charge in the first place, but certainly those making at against Obama on behalf of McCain had better be married to glaziers...

[John317]

Well, let it all hang out during the debates. I am looking forward to them. I'm sure you are, too.

I lean rather heavily right now in McCain's favor, but to be honest, the thing I really care about is that I want the best man for America to win. (I'm assuming that the best man of America is the best man for the world in general, although I realize you may see that as a big step o' faith or whatever.)

I may not always like the choice America makes in an election, but I have no trouble accepting it and supporting the elected president. That's the way most of the nation has been during most of our history, until the last two elections.

When you look back in American history, it is remarkable how fortunate we have been to have the right men in that office when we needed them. Some have seen the hand of Providence in those things, and agree with that assessment, which Ellen White shares. No better man than Abraham Lincoln could have been in the office during the war between the states, and certainly FDR was the right man to be there during WWII. I would have to include Kennedy for the Cuban Missile Crisis, and and both Kennedy and Johnson for the Civil Rights period, which could have gone very badly indeed. (Not forgetting MLK!) I really believe that history will record that George W. Bush was the right man to have in there during 9/11. I know you'll laugh at that but most Americans agree and I believe history will judge him that way, too.

By the way, I still see Vietnam as a big mistake all the way from the beginning. I think we should have been supporting Ho Chi Minh from 1941 onwards, but I understand that since we were friends of the French we could not do that. Especially given the fact that Ho was friends of our Cold War enemy, the USSR.

I know I went far afield from the topic, but at least it's all about US leadership.

[Dr. Shane]

Race is not an elephant in the room. Race was addressed a lot in the primaries. The issue with Obama using the race card is that he was trying to label McCain a racist before McCain ever made any racist remarks. Obama was saying "they" (referring to Republicans) are going to say I don't look like those President on dollar bills. So before any racist remarks were made by any Republicans Obama made his preemptive attack. He was called on it.

I am part of a biracial marriage. I know the impact of racism first hand. I hate racism. It is such a serious charge we should let anyone get away with racism or with trying to label someone else a racist preemptively.

Consider this. I have an attractive daughter. A young boy looks at her so I tell my daughter the boy is a rapist so she should never go out with him. That is basically what Obama is doing. His only basis for the charge is that he is black just as my only basis for the charge is because my daughter is attractive.

[John317]

I am part of a biracial marriage. I know the impact of racism first hand. I hate racism. It is such a serious charge we should let anyone get away with racism or with trying to label someone else a racist preemptively.

Yes, me too. We share that experience in common. My 20 year old has come home with some heart-breaking stories because where she works, there are whites who have called her a "Mexican jumping bean," or accuse her of stealing simply because she looks "dark." She's told them before that her dad is German/English but they don't believe her. So I know personally what racism does and how badly it can make you feel.

But at the same time I teach her not let those things or those people make her bitter or hateful. I tell her it's those people's problems, not hers. She understands that but it still hurts, naturally.

[jasd]

My boy is part German, English, French, Irish, Native American, and Asian.

He used to run into a little guff now and then. He and his brothers - even his sister - would beat the holy bejiminy out of those who shoulda known better than to give him grief.

It's been a long time since he's been harassed.

Straight from the shoulder, ain it? the way it oughta be..., all natural-like.

Blessed be the peace-makers

Oh, the topic..., if'n you got a problem with the price of gas - put more air in your tires and mebbe, get a new set of plugs.

[olger]

[Amelia]

[Amelia]

Quote:

My 20 year old has come home with some heart-breaking stories because where she works, there are whites who have called her a "Mexican jumping bean," or accuse her of stealing simply because she looks "dark."

That is just sick. Also, can't that be considered harrassment?

[Dr. Shane]

Racism often manifests itself in job discrimination. Hispanics, for example, are considered to be ignorant. So a Hispanic will often be denied a job or promotion because the powers that be think the person is ignorant based only upon their race.

I understand where Obama is coming from. Blacks get denied jobs so often because of their color he is paranoid that he will not win the presidency because of his color. I think his concern is legitimate but the racial prejudice that could keep him out of the White House is not coming from the McCain camp and he needs to make sure he doesn't insinuate that it is.

[Bravus]

Two quick comments:

(1) the race issue seems to have taken us off the topic of this particular thread, which was flipflopping, but I guess that's OK.

(2) I didn't read Obama's comments in context, but was it clear that 'they' referred to McCain or his team at all? Or was 'they' simply the racists out there who will work against him on the basis of his race? There's no denying there are such people... the question is just whether he was talking about them in general, or insinuating that they are in McCain's camp specifically.

[lazarus]

LOL

Here we go again.

David Gergen nails it, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfXvK84MPqQ

[Jeannieb43]

IMHO, David Gergen usually hits the nail on the head. He's very objective in his commentaries.

I saw that particular discussion this morning on TV; and I have to say, McCain has now begun using the very tactics he hated when Bush used them against him in 2000. Dirty tactics, innuendo and slander. But McCain has now resurrected Rove and his ilk, to use in battle against Obama.

[John317]

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My 20 year old has come home with some heart-breaking stories because where she works, there are whites who have called her a "Mexican jumping bean," or accuse her of stealing simply because she looks "dark."

That is just sick. Also, can't that be considered harrassment?

Well it would be if it was coming from an employee, but these are things being said by "clients" who live in the large retirement center for very rich white people, who pay up to $5,000 per month for a room and are kind of spoiled. With that kind of money paid, they can kind of get away with saying anything they want, unfortunately.

I wouldn't want to give the impression that they are all talking that way, though. She also has a lot of sweet people, thank God.

[Neil D]

Race is not an elephant in the room. Race was addressed a lot in the primaries. The issue with Obama using the race card is that he was trying to label McCain a racist before McCain ever made any racist remarks. Obama was saying "they" (referring to Republicans) are going to say I don't look like those President on dollar bills. So before any racist remarks were made by any Republicans Obama made his preemptive attack. He was called on it.

Absolutely taken totally out of context. The context is Republicans are trying to use scare tactics on you. Obama is different. He educates and teaches. He is not like others.

Go back and look at the film, Shane. You have been listening to Rush, and Drudge again.

Decide for yourself, not what the republican media is telling you.

[Bravus]

So what we're saying is that the Repubs are pre-empting Obama's pre-empting of any racial messages they might send? Hey, Bush has succeeded - this pre-empting thing is realy catching on!

[Dr. Shane]

First off, I don't think villainizing Karl Rove is effective unless one is trying to raise money among the liberal base. Karl Rove is hated by liberals because he was effective.

I am on dial-up and don't have the time or patience to watch a YouTube video. I remain impressed with McCain taking the high road and have yet to see any inappropriate attacks on Obama.

I haven't seen any scare tactics being used by Republicans yet. How are they trying to scare me?

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Decide for yourself, not what the republican media is telling you.

I, for one, never let any form of media make up my mind for me. I trust no source of media and hold every source suspect. I know there is a battle for my mind and will not surrender it to any. I am an independent thinker.

[Dr. Shane]

Rove is known to be a distorter among liberals. His label as being a distorter is not universally accepted. Unlike Nixon is universally believed to have been a crook and Clinton to be a womanizer. There is no such consensus about Rove.

I have worked on the staff of two US Congressional candidates and one state senate candidate. That is my point of reference. Running negative ads is not taking the "low" road. Few candidates that refuse to go negative ever get elected. So in my opinion, McCain running negative ads is not in and of itself "taking the low road."

I have stated that I understand Obama's reason for being concerned about racism and that I think it is a legitimate concern. I do, however, believe he is mistaken to insinuate that McCain will use the race card.

[Neil D]

Rove is known to be a distorter among liberals. His label as being a distorter is not universally accepted.

Excuse me, but as a republican, have you been sampling Redwoods poppies???

Cuz I just don't believe that Rove is NOT a distorter....It is universally agreed upon that his repulbican leanings make him an excellent PR man and an excellent damage control man for any republican elect official. And the press, whom my daughter [my point of reference, say so.