In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations.

[lazarus]

Speaking to reporters about the situation in Georgia, Sen. John McCain denounced the aggressive posture of Russia by claiming that:"in the 21st century nations don't invade other nations."

watch the video.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccain-in-the-21st-centur_n_118759.html

[Dr. Shane]

I think that is one of the benefits of global trade. Nations have become so dependent on each other economically that we can somewhat prevent these types of invasions by the threat of economic consequences.

If Russia had a legitimate complaint they should have taken it to an international body, like the UN, and rallied the support of allies before going in like they did. They shed an incredible amount of blood in a short time. It doesn't look like they were using any smart bombs to minimize civilian casualties either. It is really a contrast to the US. It makes it hard for anyone to criticize what the US did in Afghanistan or Iraq. Of course, the US government is much more honorable than Russian.

I am glad the US is talking tough and rallying the world community to unite and stop this kind of aggression. I was afraid that since it was Russia and they have nuclear weapons that no one would do anything. It makes a person proud to be an American.

[Amelia]

Seems like we had a time warp and arrived back in the 60's version of USSR.

[Bravus]

90% of the people in South Ossetia are Russian citizens - and the Georgian government was attacking them. One of the privileges of citizenship, at least since Rome, is protection.

[Dr. Shane]

Well, a lot of them got Russian passports after Georgia became independent. It would be like the US giving 90% Mexicans in the Mexican state of Tamaulipas US passports and then invading Mexico and saying we are defending our citizens.

Georgia has the only pipeline providing oil to Europe outside of Russia. If Russia controls Georgia it controls all oil pipelines into Europe.

Why? Please tell me why? Would anyone think the US went into Iraq for oil but doubt that is why Russia is going into Georgia? Is there any reason to believe Russia is more noble than the US?

[carolaa]

Speaking to reporters about the situation in Georgia, Sen. John McCain denounced the aggressive posture of Russia by claiming that:"in the 21st century nations don't invade other nations."

Yup. My head is still spinning over that one.

[carolaa]

I am glad the US is talking tough and rallying the world community to unite and stop this kind of aggression. I was afraid that since it was Russia and they have nuclear weapons that no one would do anything. It makes a person proud to be an American.

I think part of the reason Russia was so bold to do it is because they are no longer afraid of us. We have lost our clout in the world, our economy is in shambles. And what can we say, anyway, when invade other countries when it suits us?

[Dr. Shane]

First, it is just silly and rather ignorant to compare Russia's invasion of Georgia with the US invasions of Afghanistan or Iraq. In context, McCain was referring to invading other countries in a colonial manner. The days of colonization are over. Nations don' invade and colonize other nations in the 21st century. To pretend he meant something else is to play a childish game of "gotcha".

The US did not try to annex either Afghanistan or Iraq.

• Where are Russia's allies?
• Is Russia going to establish an independent democratic government in South Ossetia?
• Is Russian spending billions of dollars using smart bombs to minimize civilian causalities?
• Did Russian bring the South Ossetia issue before the UN?

As far as Russia being afraid of us... They are a nuclear power with missiles pointing at our major cities. I don't think they have feared our military for a very long time. Now whether or not they fear us economically is something else. The price of oil has brought Russia untold riches. If the can control the oil pipeline in Georgia they can pretty much blackmale Europe into doing business with them which would make it nearly impossible for European nations to implement sanctions against them.

[carolaa]

Shane, in the last 24 hours, you have called me naive, silly, ignorant, and childish. I haven't noticed if you talk to everyone that way, but I don't appreciate it.

[Dr. Shane]

I try to speak in the third person and not address other members directly when disagreeing. I have not said, "You are silly" or "You are ignorant" as that would be provocative and uncalled for.

What I have stated is that certain viewpoints are ignorant and silly. There are times that people hear things and repeat them (myself included). At times I may hear things that are ignorant and silly. When I repeat them someone may say that is ignorant and silly. Such a comment would be directed at the information I am repeating and not at me personally.

In this case perhaps you, or others, were reading someone out in liberal land compare the invasion of Georgia by Russia to the invasion of Iraq by the US-led coalition. Then you come in here and repeat that comparison. Then I make a comment that the comparison is silly and ignorant. I am not saying that you or any other member on this site is silly or ignorant. My comments are directed at ideas, not people.

When I address someone personally I use the word "you" or thier name and rarely do so when I am disagreeing with them.

[John317]

I try to speak in the third person and not address other members directly when disagreeing. I have not said, "You are silly" or "You are ignorant" as that would be provocative and uncalled for.

What I have stated is that certain viewpoints are ignorant and silly.

It's perfectly acceptable on the threads to say that a certain argument or viewpoint is silly, superficial, etc.

Making a judgment of that kind about an argument or an idea is OK and is to be expected during a discussion where people have strong convictions about a subject.

[Bravus]

Then I'll just say it's silly to start parsing McCain's comments in terms of what 'kind' of invasion he was talking about. And it's also silly for McCain to say something as bald and broad as he did.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Glad tah see y'alls gettin' on the America-First bandwagon! though's pity it's the

Blame America First little ol' wagon. Well, shucks, go figure...

Anytheways, we's be seein' the Russkies and their puppetmasters goin' tah war for oil whilst we's justa mewlin' an' awhinin' 'bout fair this and fair that - sheesh! sameo', sameo'

bassackwards blepotardism atakin' us back tah the stoney-age.

[John317]

Then I'll just say it's silly to start parsing McCain's comments in terms of what 'kind' of invasion he was talking about. And it's also silly for McCain to say something as bald and broad as he did.

Well, there you go. Not bad.

Not that I agree that it's silly, but then we Americans support your right to your opinion, no matter what it is-- long as you love us and our President. (Just kidding-- I know that can't be.)

[John317]

I agree with you, JASD.

Love that accent but don't recognize it here in Southern California.

[John317]

If anyone can't make out the differences between what the US did in Iraq and what the Russians did in Georgia--

Well, I was about ready to say I'd give up saying anything then, but I thought better of it because there just might be this one last hope:

Check out what the Russians did in Afghanistan as opposed to what the Americans have done there and are doing there still.

People have no idea of the horror the Afghan people went through when the Russians were there. The Russians would take the women to a school and rape them. It was part of the Russian policy. The Russians didn't have an investigation to find out who did it so they could be punished. Know why? Take a wild guess.

I have good friends from Afghanistan who couldn't call their parents before the parents died because the Taliban wouldn't let the people there telephone their relatives in America. Maybe you saw the Taliban shooting women during soccer games. (Is it permitted to say this?) Well something you may not know is that they also summarily executed and otherwise severely punished people for having TV sets, working satellite dishes or using telephones.

[Neil D]

People have no idea of the horror the Afghan people went through when the Russians were there. The Russians would take the women to a school and rape them. It was part of the Russian policy. The Russians didn't have an investigation to find out who did it so they could be punished. Know why? Take a wild guess.

You are right. I have no idea....but I am willing to learn....from unbiased sources....

You got any links that show the attrocities or a reporter who has witnessed these attrocities that you claim? Is there more than one reporter, beside yourself and what you are basing your opionions upon?

Cause, frankly, I don't trust your opinions, John. They are very slanted...perhaps they are musings of a wistful nature, but when posted here, they become opinions. As such, they need to be checked out.

After all, what you need is an unbiased person to confirm what you said to gain credibility....And if you can convince the skeptic that I am, well, wouldn't that be an ace in the credibliity department?

[Dr. Shane]

what you need is an unbiased person

I do not believe such a person exists.

[carolaa]

If anyone can't make out the differences between what the US did in Iraq and what the Russians did in Georgia--

Did I miss something? I didn't notice that anyone said that.

[Bravus]

There are a huge number of interlinked issues here. I'll have a go at unwinding some, while recognising that this particular Gordian knot is probably in need of a sword...

1. No-one is equating Russia in Georgia with the USA in ... anywhere. That's not what this is about. It's as simple as the irony of McCain saying 'nations don't...' when his nation did. It's not about the virtue or otherwise of the various invasions, it's about the fact that the statement on its face is nonsense.

2. Shane's comments have tended toward the 'Because it's the US it's virtuous' slant. Maybe that's not what he means, but it's very much how it comes across. But for those of us outside the US, it's not about the identity of the invaders at all, it's about their motivations and the consequences of their actions. And what the McCain supporters in this thread have consistently done is ascribe the most noble motives and consequences to the US and the most base motivations and consequences to Russia. The truth is no doubt somewhere in the middle in both cases, but it's bogus to *reject* 'it's about oil' as an explanation of the US invasion of Iraq but autmatically accept it as he explanation for the Russian invasion of Georgia.

[Dr. Shane]

I think the fact that McCain's comment, "on its face," is false makes it obvious that it was not meant to be taken "on its face." Those that want to take his remarks on their face seem to be playing the "gotcha" game. They are not concerned about what he meant rather only how they can use his words against him.

My point about America being more virtuous is simple. If America were in Russia's shoes the world would not be trying to figure out how they could reverse our actions. When America invaded Iraq there were no meetings of nations considering economic sanctions against us or expelling us from organizations like NATO, G8, WTO or the UN because, for the most part, even those that disagreed with America trusted our motives were noble.