Sharing stage, Obama and McCain split on abortion

[John317]

Whose position on abortion do you agree with? Is it a baby in the womb or isn't it? Read both article, this one and the one on the next post-- then do some soul searching and praying, then decide.

Sharing stage, Obama and McCain split on abortion

By CHARLES BABINGTON and BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writers

2 hours, 20 minutes ago

LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Presidential contenders Barack Obama and John McCain differed sharply on abortion Saturday, with McCain saying a baby's human rights begin "at conception," while Obama restated his support for legalized abortion.

Appearing on the same stage for the first time in months, although they overlapped only briefly, the two men shared their views on a range of moral, foreign and domestic issues as they near their respective nominating conventions.

Obama said he would limit abortions in the late stages of pregnancy if there are exceptions for the mother's health. He said he knew that people who consider themselves pro-life will find his stance "inadequate."

He said the government should do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies and to help struggling new mothers, such as providing needed resources to the poor, and better adoption services.

McCain expressed his anti-abortion stand simply and quickly, saying human rights begin the instant a human egg is fertilized. McCain, who adopted a daughter from Bangladesh, also called for making adoption easier.

The men's comments came at a two-hour forum on faith hosted by the minister Rick Warren at his megachurch in Orange County, Calif. Obama joined Warren for the first hour, and McCain for the second. The two candidates briefly shook hands and hugged each other during the switch.

Warren asked both men the same questions. McCain said he did not see or hear Obama's session, which might have given him an advantage.

Obama said America's greatest moral failure is its insufficient help to the disadvantaged. He noted that the Bible quotes Jesus as saying "whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me." He said the maxim should apply to victims of poverty, sexism and racism.

McCain said the nation's greatest moral shortcoming is its failure to "devote ourselves to causes greater than our self-interests."

After the September 2001 terrorist attacks, McCain said, there should have been a national push for joining the Peace Corps and other volunteer organizations. His comment seemed an indirect criticism of President Bush, who had urged tax cuts and more shopping at the time to stimulate the economy.

McCain also said he would pursue Osama bin Laden "to the gates of Hell," another goal that might be seen as a swipe at the Bush administration.

Both men said marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Obama added that he supports civil unions for gay partners, which would give them rights such as hospital visits with one another. He said he opposed a constitutional ban on gay marriage, calling the matter a state issue.

McCain's answer was less clear. If a federal court ordered his state, Arizona, to honor gay marriages allowed in Massachusetts, he said, "then I would favor a constitutional amendment. Until then, I believe the states should make the decisions within their own states."

In several cases, Obama gave a Christian interpretation to his generally liberal political views. He said he is redeemed by Jesus, who died for his sins.

McCain tended to give shorter, less complex answers, winning somewhat more applause than Obama from the large, evangelical church's audience. On domestic matters, he restated his call to "drill now" in U.S. lands and waters for oil and natural gas.

McCain, asked the toughest decision in his life, cited his refusal to be released ahead of fellow U.S. prisoners of war in North Vietnam. "It took a lot of prayer," he said.

He retold his story of a Christmas Day celebration outside his cell, when a prison guard etched a cross into the dirt. "For a moment, we were just two Christians worshipping there," McCain said.

When Warren asked Obama to define the word "rich," the Illinois senator teased the pastor about the mammoth sales of his book, "The Purpose Driven Life." Obama noted his plan to add a new Social Security payroll tax to incomes above $250,000 a year.

McCain said, "some of the richest people I've ever known in my life are the most unhappy."

He said being rich should be defined by having a home and a prosperous and safe world. Without mentioning Obama, he said some want to increase taxes.

"I don't want to take any money from the rich. I want everybody to get rich," McCain said.

When pushed on an exact number, he joked: "If you're just talking about income, how about five million?" He added, "I'm sure that comment will be distorted."

Asked to name three wise people they would listen to, Obama named his wife, Michelle; his maternal grandmother, who lives in Hawaii; and, not limiting himself to only a third, named several Democratic and Republican lawmakers.

McCain named Gen. David Petreaus, head of U.S. troops in Iraq; U.S. Rep. and veteran civil rights leader John Lewis, D-Ga.; and former eBay CEO Meg Whitman, a top adviser to his campaign.

He lauded Whitman for turning a five-person business into a billion-dollar piece of the economy. "It's one of these great economic success stories," McCain said.

Obama, asked his most significant policy shift in the last 10 years, cited welfare reform. As an Illinois state senator, he worked to mitigate what he thought could be "disastrous" effects of President Clinton's welfare reform effort. But over time he said he came to embrace Clinton's approach.

"We have to have work as a centerpiece of any social policy," Obama said.

Asked why they want to be president, Obama said the United States should be an empathetic power for good in the world, a mission he fears is slipping away.

McCain said, "I want to inspire a generation of Americans to serve a cause greater than its self interest. . But I also believe we face enormous challenges, both of national security and domestic."

___

Associated Press writer Phil Elliott contributed to this report.

___

(This version corrects that McCain, not Obama, had the second hour.)

[John317]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2060118/posts

What Barack Obama defended three times: Live Birth Abortion

Monday, August 11, 2008

Posted on August 11, 2008 1:40:00 PM PDT by cpforlife.org

It is well known by Pro-Lifers but not by the general public. The MSM has done everything to keep it that way. We must help get the fact out that Barack Obama strenuously defended the indefensible at least three times.

The procedure is frequently called “Live birth abortion” but it is not really an abortion at all:

“... doctors do not attempt to kill the baby in the uterus. The goal is simply to prematurely deliver a baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward.” [1]

Obama… “refused as an Illinois state senator to support legislation to protect babies who survived late-term abortions because he did not want to concede — as he explained in a cold-blooded speech on the Illinois Senate floor — that these babies, fully outside their mothers’ wombs, with their hearts beating and lungs heaving, were in fact “persons.” [2]

“On the Illinois Senate floor, Obama was the only senator to speak against the baby-protecting bills.” [2]

Obama fought it for three years as a Illinois state senator, even after it passed 98-0 in the US Senate as the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. [3]

Barack Obama fought it even after NARAL “…released a statement that said, “Consistent with our position last year, NARAL does not oppose passage of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act.” [4]

Barack Obama goes way beyond “choice on abortion”. This is outright murder that he wanted paid for with our tax dollars. Voters must take into account just how radical Obama is when every democrat and even NARAL went against him. Voters must soberly consider where Obama wants to lead this Nation.

Obama has repeatedly proven that he does not respect the life of born children. How can we honestly expect him to respect ours.

Americans must know about his repeatedly horrendous public policy judgments. Perhaps then they will finally realize how wrong for America Barack Obama would be as president.

[John317]

As a member of the Socialist Workers Party, I took part in 1972 in a debate on the San Diego State University campus between Marxists and pro-lifers. Let me tell you how that debate went.

My socialist friends spoke of the fetus as a parasite. Having been brought up in an Adventist home, I privately felt appalled that anyone could refer to a baby in that way.

In the debate our side spoke for about 20 minutes about the reasons that women should be able to abort a fetus-- never once calling it a "baby". I thought we did a pretty good job. I didn't know how the other side could possibly hope to win after such a strong defense of abortion.

The pro-lifers got up, and they hardly said a word. All they did was dim the lights and show picture after picture of dead babies-- yes, babies!--- who had been aborted and thrown away like trash. Their faces looked just like any baby you ever held, but the faces were sometimes damaged and the eyes shut.

When it was over, our side did not even try to rebut. Silence. It was over.

At this same meeting, I had a chance to talk personally with the candidate of the SWP for US President. She told me that if the Socialists won, they would eventually work towards ending religious freedom. Her name was Linda Jenness and that year she got 53,000 votes in the general election. Andrew Pulley, whom I also knew, was the candidate for Vice-President. Google: Socialist Workers Party, Linda Jenness or Andrew Pulley.

The Socialist Workers Party, which is really communist, has the same position on abortion as does Senator Obama.

[Neil D]

Rick Warren replys to charges by evangelicals that Obama should not share the pulput with Rick Warren.

I like what one progressive individual put out....

...if the soldiers in Iraq can work together in harms way with all thier differences- gay/straight, white/black, republican/ democrate, pro-life/pro-choice, conservative/liberal- the least we can do over here is to do the same. After the fiasco we have them mired in, we owe those kids to be more focused and gracious than that.

[Dr. Shane]

I saw part of Obama's interview on Daystar yesteday. He really isn't that great of a speaker without the teleprompter. Anyway he did come across as sincere. We have two good candidates that make it tough to decide which is best for the country.

[carolaa]

The pro-lifers got up, and they hardly said a word. All they did was dim the lights and show picture after picture of dead babies-- yes, babies!--- who had been aborted and thrown away like trash.

I find it so interesting that similar pictures of the horrors of war don't seem to bother the "pro-lifers." I really don't get it. All they seem to care about is womb life.

[Dr. Shane]

That is easy to explain. War is something like divorce. It is a terrible thing that everyone agrees should never happen. But when it does happen innocent people always get hurt. Sometimes there is no way of stop it - divorce or war. So we learn to live with the consequences even though we don't like them.

Abortion is seen as something that can be avoided in the vast majority of cases. Fewer than 2% of abortions are performed due to rape, incest or the mother's health. So these lives being lost are seen as ones that can be saved and allowing abortion-on-demand is seen as infanticide.

I am sympathetic to the pro-life cause. I don't favor banning abortion because the number of abortions performed in nations where it is banned, like Mexico, are comparable to nations where it is legal. The reason for that, I believe, is the psychology of the women having these abortions. It is similar to the psychology of drug addicts. No law is going to stop them. However we can use laws to prevent people from becoming addicted to drugs in the first place and we can use laws to convince women not to have abortions. So I favor keeping abortion legal and placing restrictions on it to discourage it.

[Bravus]

Pity this one issue is the only one noticed from a very positive and interesting discussion between the two presidential candidates at Saddleback.

[Jeannieb43]

LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Presidential contenders Barack Obama and John McCain differed sharply on abortion Saturday, with McCain saying a baby's human rights begin "at conception," while Obama restated his support for legalized abortion.

This paragraph could more accurately be stated as:

...McCain saying a fetus has more rights than an adult human being (especially more rights than school-age children), while Obama restated his support for a woman's right to control over her own body.

[olger]

How do you apply this statement of God, Jeannie?

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

I feel for those among the 40-million women. They carry deep consequences of their actions, and it needs to be resolved Biblically. There is hope.

oG

[carolaa]

...McCain saying a fetus has more rights than an adult human being (especially more rights than school-age children),

Would you mind expounding on that?

[carolaa]

I saw this op-ed today that addresses this very subject. The writer is pro-life, but he is supporting Obama because he feels there would be fewer abortions with him as president. Huffington Post's bias is liberal, of course, but the thoughts are interesting, coming from a pro-life view.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20080817/cm_huffpost/119435

[Jeannieb43]

"The Republican leadership is not pro-life!"

How true.

This administration sacrifices thousands of innocent lives on the battlefield of a totally wrong war -- and they have the nerve to call themselves pro-life!

This administration withholds money for feeding the poor -- making it necessary that unwanted children are brought into the world but then denying those children food to give them healthy growth.

===========

BTW, I myself am pro-life.

But I'm pro-the-life-of-the-woman!

After all, she's the living, breathing, contributing member of society. The embryo hasn't contributed a single thing to this world's edification. The woman's value trumps that of an embryo.

(And she never chooses to undergo an abortion except in the most dire circumstances.)

[carolaa]

Yeah, I think if the right wingers were truly concerned about abortions, they would be doing more to educate and help women in crisis. But they seem to think that cutting off funds and making laws is the answer.

You do need to be careful, I think, about making one's "contribution" a criterion for taking a life. That kind of reasoning can lead to euthanasia for elderly, severely handicapped, etc. I do agree with you that the mother's life/health takes precedence. And there are other situations when parents have to make agonizing decisions, and that should be between them and their doctor (and God). It's not our business to get in there and tell them what to do.

If we were serious about wanting abortion to stop, I think we would be doing more to show how much we care about all the people involved.

[Dr. Shane]

...McCain saying a fetus has more rights than an adult human being (especially more rights than school-age children), while Obama restated his support for a woman's right to control over her own body.

That argument is outdated. Before DNA science became advanced there was a little more believability in the idea that the fetus was part of the woman. However we now know that the fetus has its own DNA. It is dependent on the woman but not part of her. The fetus is its own person from conception. It is 100% completely dependent on its mother. Ethically and morally the mother is obligated to care for and nourish the fetus.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I think if the right wingers were truly concerned about abortions, they would be doing more to educate and help women in crisis.

Pregnancy crisis centers are all across the nation trying to educate and help women in crisis and they are opposed by Planned Parenthood and other "pro-choice" organizations. The answer definitely lies educating and helping women in crisis but that is not what pro-choice organizations want. They want more abortions. The more abortions the better. They don't want women becoming educated, receiving financial and moral support and deciding to keep the child. Abort, abort, abort is what they want. And if that fetus somehow survives the abortion, they want to be able to kill it outside the womb.

Typical pro-lifers error in the idea that banning abortion will stop it. This simply is not true. We can look to several nations where abortion is banned to see it doesn't work. But the solution isn't abortion-on-demand and some make-believe right of privacy. The solution is multi-faceted. Education is a big part. Most unwed mothers get pregnant due to sex during intoxication. So teaching them birth control doesn't solve the problem because when they are drunk they don't care. Restrictions need to be placed on abortion like parental consent, mandatory waiting period and mandatory counseling. Abortion after 12 weeks should be banned except in cases to save the mother's life. Adoption needs to be made easier too.

[carolaa]

Ethically and morally the mother is obligated to care for and nourish the fetus.

I don't believe that's always true.

[carolaa]

Restrictions need to be placed on abortion like parental consent, mandatory waiting period and mandatory counseling. Abortion after 12 weeks should be banned except in cases to save the mother's life. Adoption needs to be made easier too.

I have mixed feelings on parental consent. Too often teens who get in that situation don't have the best qualified parents to be making decisions for them. I know it can happen in the best families, and in those families I'm sure the decision is made with the parents, anyway. But for the rest, I have big reservations about it. Certainly, the girls need guidance, but I don't think it should have to be a parent. (I actually know of a situation where the mother basically forced the daughter to get an abortion she didn't want.)

I could agree with a mandatory waiting period of a few days.

I have mixed feelings about mandatory counseling. On the one hand, I want to say yes, absolutely. But I think most counselors will try to sway the girl/woman one way or the other. Maybe coaching would be a better way to go, where they try to help the girl/woman come to her own decision.

I can agree with your version of the 12-wk ban as long as it doesn't override the mandatory waiting period.

I have mixed feelings about making adoptions easier. I have seen too many abusive adoptive parents to feel comfortable with that. I'm sure most adoptive parents are just fine, but I'm not sure making it easier is the answer. It might be trying to solve one problem by creating another.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I have mixed feelings on parental consent.

1. When minors can have abortions without parental consent that allows adults that have sex with minors to pressure the minors to have an abortion so they don't get convicted of their crime.

2. Abortions are bad. We want to reduce the number of them. Making minors accountable to their parents is one way we do that.

3. Parental consent laws have clauses which allow for a judge to waive the parental requirement if the parents are abusive.

4. If a minor is having sexual relations, the parent needs to know about it in order to properly parent the child. The law does the average child no favor by allowing the child to have an abortion without parental consent.

Quote:

I think most counselors will try to sway the girl/woman one way or the other.

They should. Our public policy has to be that abortion is bad and we want to discourage it. Just like we allow tobacco to be legal but we use public policy to discourage it. Imagine if we had government-sponsored anti-abortion campaigns like we have government-sponsored anti-smoking campaigns. They way to reduce abortions isn't to ban them, it is to adopt public policy that discourages them. Over 90% of women going into a pregnancy crisis center decides to give birth after counseling!

Quote:

I have seen too many abusive adoptive parents to feel comfortable with that.

The screening process isn't the problem. I don't think anyone is suggesting we make the screening process easier.

[Bravus]

Quote:

1. When minors can have abortions without parental consent that allows adults that have sex with minors to pressure the minors to have an abortion so they don't get convicted of their crime.

And when those getting the minors pregnant are their parents?

[Dr. Shane]

I guess I am missing the point there. Not having parental consent laws does not prevent parents from sexually abusing their children. Parental consent laws don't stop sexual abuse by parents but the don't help parents cover it up either. I guess I don't understand the objection.

[Bravus]

The point being made is that parental consent laws assume parents are good people and have their daughters' interests at heart. That's generally but by no means universally true.

[Dr. Shane]

Agreed. Yet we have to make laws based on what is generally true and than have clauses for the exceptions. In the US, courts have struck down parental consent laws when they do not provide a means for the minor to seek a waiver from a judge. That is the clause for the exceptions.