carolaa Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 LOL, I just noticed your signature byline thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted September 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 8, 2008 HMS Richards Sr, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel, HMS Richards Jr, George Vandeman, As a child I loved Pastor Fagel, but was too young to really remember what he taught. William Foxwell Albright, C. S. Lewis are among some of my favorite. As an evangelist Joe Crews did a fantastic job. He thought like a typical evangelical and to share our beliefs in a way that made sense and appealed to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Any of the men mentioned on this thread would tell you that it is not about them, but about the God they serve. I doubt if any of them do it to win a popularity contest. Any person who does the will of God by spreading the truths that God would have the world to know in these times, those evangelists are my favorites. No matter the results they are to be commended. DB Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 In no poticular order, Morris Venden HMS Richards, Senior. Dick Winn People who I found too narrow- Joe Crews Frazee Baldwin, Mr. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 8, 2008 Any of the men mentioned on this thread would tell you that it is not about them, but about the God they serve. I doubt if any of them do it to win a popularity contest.... That is very true. None of them did it to be popular. You don't preach unpopular truths in order to be well liked. The Adventist message is not popular with most people. You wouldn't expect it to be because it is calling people to deny self and carry Christ's cross daily. I am sure that is why some people did not appreciate Joe Crews, but his reward is with Jesus. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rush4hire Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 Thanks everyone. I will check out some of these evangelists I never heard of. Wonderful... Originally Posted By: D. Allan he's an "evangelist" for God. i 2nd your nomination for HMS Richards' date=' Sr. /dAb[/quote'] Could you briefly summarize his view of God or Christ? I'm interested in Eastern religions. Alot of people have no problem with a man who will make up his own little sayings and not make an effort to demonstrate how the same teaching is taught in the Bible in one form or another. Do they hope to become so famous that people will quote them, like in the over-dramatic speeches of debaters and politicians? Even if the well-educated might think I'm simple minded, I would still rather use the Scripture. Then the hearer is furnished with ammunition that he can use in sharing and defending his faith. [color:#BF0000]2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. But before I found the SDA church, all I did was study and try to practice eastern religions. That's why I became a vegetarian. The Buddhists, Hindus, Yogis, Druids, where all vegetarians. I was glad for the SDA church. Finally Christians that are vegetarian. As you can imagine, I tried to teach them the virtues of Yoga, but I couldn't get anyone signed up. The SDA people said yoga was bad. I wasn't convinced. I was at the library one time reading a book about Raja Yoga, which is focused on the mind more than body, in this case, for memory enhancement. I figured I'd be using it to memorize the Bible and learn foreign languages. I was thinking about this mantra: "SA, TA, NA, MA". I thought "Satan Ama?" Is that what I've been chanting? Is this just a coincidence? It was like he couldn't take it any more. A demon began screaming in my ear: "SATAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!! SATAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!" Over and over again. I had to leave the library. If all the time I spent studying Yoga was wasted, then I was mad, like someone when he realizes he got ripped off by a con-man. But some of those things have stuck with me to this day, 12 years later. I still try to sleep with my head to the north, because of the magnetic field of the earth. Actually that's finally starting to fade. I still don't swallow phlegm because they said that's what contributes to headaches. Zen Buddhism was quite prestigious. That's because it's all about goals and success. Of course alot of those teachings are just practical. Like when you have a task, push out everything that does not pertain to the task. Rebuke thoughts like what people are going to think of you, what if you succeed, what if you fail, etc. Focus on the goal. Be the target. Be the arrow... Like that.. Quote I cant make a sig with 30 chrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 8, 2008 too narrow ....Frazee Baldwin, Did you listen to Frazee on the heavenly sanctuary ministry of Christ? I thought he was really excellent. He has a book out called, Ransom and Reunion Through the Sanctuary. Who is Baldwin? I know of several. Were the ones you found "too narrow" preaching the truth? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 8, 2008 ....But before I found the SDA church, all I did was study and try to practice eastern religions. That's why I became a vegetarian. The Buddhists, Hindus, Yogis, Druids, where all vegetarians. I was glad for the SDA church. Finally Christians that are vegetarian. As you can imagine, I tried to teach them the virtues of Yoga, but I couldn't get anyone signed up. The SDA people said yoga was bad. I wasn't convinced. I was at the library one time reading a book about Raja Yoga, which is focused on the mind more than body, in this case, for memory enhancement. I figured I'd be using it to memorize the Bible and learn foreign languages. I was thinking about this mantra: "SA, TA, NA, MA". I thought "Satan Ama?" Is that what I've been chanting? Is this just a coincidence? It was like he couldn't take it any more. A demon began screaming in my ear: "SATAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!! SATAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!" Over and over again. I had to leave the library. If all the time I spent studying Yoga was wasted, then I was mad, like someone when he realizes he got ripped off by a con-man. Zen Buddhism was quite prestigious. That's because it's all about goals and success. Of course alot of those teachings are just practical...... I know what you are talking about as far as eastern religions go. I was also very interested in them, while I was in the army, actually. I went up to San Francisco during the summer of love, 1967, and then in 1968 and 69, spending time in the Height-Ashbury district. I went to a place where they were teaching and practicing Nishu Buddhism. I was very attracted to it for for several years and would chant and medidate and read the sutras and various texts. I found most of the practitioners of it to be doing it in order to receive material blessings. I was very surprised and disgusted by that aspect of it. Their "testimony" was all centered on how much money they made or what good luck they had because of their chanting. I'm glad God found you and brought you the true gospel. Keep studying the Word and stay close to Jesus. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Good point about preaching SDA doctrine being unpopular. It doesn't seem all that long ago when Adventist tele-evangelist was sort of an oxy-moron. There were sda evangelists, and there where tele evangelists, but there were no sda on tv, at least not many. George Vandeman was on. The quiet hour had a show. They didn't have the big production seminars on satellite, or anywhere else like they do now. I remember when Breath of Life with CD Brooks first came on local tv where I grew up. It was very infrequent. When it was on steady, certain key members of the local big baptist church would sneak out of service on Sunday, just so they could go home and hear what Elder Brooks had to say on his TV show. I also remember when I first saw 3ABN on tv. It came on a local gospel station at 2am in the morning. That same station would later show Joe Crews at 7am on Sunday mornings. It was 7am in Dallas, and about 9am in Houston. I was a big fan of Joe Crews. Adventists on tv has come a long ways. DB Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 8, 2008 I did too-- I mean liked Joe Crews a lot. He covered the subject very well, I thought. And he was pretty thorough and did not mince words. Some evangelists talk like they are afraid of offending anyone with the truth. Well, you really can't preach the truth today without offending somebody, I guess. I used to watch Faith For Today too. I had pastor William Fagal's brother as my teacher in Pauline Epistles at La Sierra. I hope and pray that God will give our church such men as those were, again. Men like Vandeman, Crews, Fagal, Brooks, and W.D. Frazee. We need them. Oh, say, did you ever hear of, or attend the evangelistic meetings of, a man name Spears? He was a black man who had memorized the whole Bible and he preached nothing but the Bible from memorization. He was amazing. Wonderful, friendly, loving man of God. I have forgotten his first name. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 In no poticular order, Morris Venden HMS Richards, Senior. Dick Winn People who I found too narrow- Joe Crews Frazee Baldwin, Mr. Good Points Neil. The first three you mentioned were great men and great speakers. I had two out of the three as college teachers. Excellent. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 In no poticular order, Morris Venden HMS Richards, Senior. Dick Winn People who I found too narrow- Joe Crews Frazee Baldwin, Mr. Whatever happened to Dick Winn? Apostasy? Divorce? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Oh yes ... another type of person to add to the list ... those who have been divorced. Pretty soon Olger ... who will you associate with? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Neil D In no poticular order, Morris Venden HMS Richards, Senior. Dick Winn People who I found too narrow- Joe Crews Frazee Baldwin, Mr. Whatever happened to Dick Winn? Apostasy? Divorce? I found the following and am not sure if it is accurate, but but if it is, Dick Winn apparently lef the SDA church: Quote: Ellen White wrote:When men standing in the position of leaders and teachers work under the power of spiritualistic ideas and sophistries, shall we keep silent, for fear of injuring their influence, while souls are being beguiled? Satan will use every advantage that he can obtain to cause souls to become clouded and perplexed in regard to the work of the church, in regard to the word of God, and in regard to the words of warning which He has given through the testimonies of His Spirit, to guard His little flock from the subtleties of the enemy. Manuscript 72, 1904, p. 6. Recall that “We have reached the perils of the last days, when some, yes, many, shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.” I have already witnessed several once-faithful Adventists who gave heed to seducing spirits and ended up making a shipwreck of their faith. One case in point is Dick Winn. I used to love hearing Dick Winn preach. At one time he was a teacher associated with the conservative self-supporting Adventist organization called Weimar Institute in California. He was a frequent speaker at camp meetings and traveled the country doing seminars at local churches on various subjects. But then Dick became charmed by the idea that God will not personally destroy the wicked with fire, bringing about the second death. Shortly after Dick Winn began to teach that the lake of fire was not literal, he departed from the faith, turning his back on his Adventist heritage. Dick wrote a devotional book in 1986 titled His Healing Love that was translated into many languages and sold all over the world. In his book, he asked the question: How hot is hell? Then he gave his answer. Dick Winn wrote: The day will come when those who refuse His [God’s] gracious invitation for friendship will be given what they have chosen: separation from Him. When you unplug your lamp, it doesn’t explode. The light just goes out. Nor do you need to beat on the bulb in anger for its ceasing to give light. That’s simply what happens when it is disconnected. By the same token, when one breaks union with God, life ceases. God does not, in anger, need to crush it out. To be separated from the Life-giver is to be dead eternally…The people God was addressing in Biblical times did not always understand this cause-effect principle [of cutting off the power to the lamp, or life to the wicked]. It was difficult for them to appreciate the destructiveness of being out of harmony with God. And so the Bible writers employed the imagery of consuming flames to describe the sureness and completeness of the destruction of life apart from God. But being apart from God is in itself the worst thing that could ever happen to a person. God doesn’t need to torch hellish fires to enhance what is already so terrible. His Healing Love, p. 332. Sounds like Dick Winn and Graham Maxwell crossed paths somewhere. The pastor of my church was good friends with Dick Winn when they were both at Weimar Institute. I asked my pastor why Dick left the church. I could hardly believe his answer. Dick Winn, once a conservative, as are most who are associated with Weimar, began to turn so liberal that he no longer had any use for Adventism. I am convinced at least one causal element for his departure from the faith was the bewitching influence of the pantheistic idea that he embraced—the idea that (as Winn wrote in his book) “To be separated from the Life-giver is to be dead eternally.” This, some would argue, is one of the identifying characteristics of the omega of apostasy. The alpha apostasy was the idea that God’s presence was in all life. The complement, or mirror image of that concept, is that if God removes His presence, death is the result. Notice another familiar concept in Winn’s book, one that Maxwell constantly harps on. “The day will come when those who refuse His [God’s] gracious invitation for friendship will be given what they have chosen: separation from Him.” In other words, the wicked do not die the second death because they refused to let go of their cherished sins, but because they did not become friends with God. Dick Winn and Graham Maxwell would have us believe that the second death is not a matter of receiving the wages of transgressing the law and of not accepting Christ’s substitutionary death in the sinner’s behalf (that’s such a narrow, childish view), but only because they did not become buddies with their Creator. The bottom line is that Maxwell, Winn, and no telling how many others today believe that hellfire is just a metaphor. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Thanks. Hate to hear that. He was a pretty good old boy. og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 10, 2008 I know Graham Maxwell personally, and I know that he does not believe the characterization which is given him here. I attended Dr. Maxwell's Sabbath School class for many years, and did interviews of him for the Insight youth magazine where we discussed in depth these very questions. Of course it is also possible Dr. Maxwell has changed somewhat over the last 10 years. So I can't be positive what he thinks or is saying now. People do alter at times. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 10, 2008 That's true. Hate to hear it. He was a pastor at PUC when I attended there. I liked him very much. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Neil D ...People who I found too narrow- Joe Crews Frazee Baldwin, Mr. Good Points Neil. The first three you mentioned were great men and great speakers. I had two out of the three as college teachers. Excellent. What did you find too narrow about Frazee? I go more by whether I believe they teach the Bible truth rather than whether I find them too narrow. Remember-- wide is the road that leads to destruction... but narrow is the gate that leads to everlasting life.... Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Thanks. Hate to hear that. He was a pretty good old boy. og As far as I know ... he still is a good old boy as you call him. Leaving the church does not mean leaving the Lord. Dick Winn was a teacher of mine ... as was Dale Ratzlaff. I know this is old news. I just bring it up to say that just because they have left the church ... does not mean either has left the Lord. We just can't know what is in the mind and the heart. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: I'd vote for for Joe Crews, but he's asleep and awaiting the 2nd coming. I will refrain from commenting or else I might have to provide some quotes. Forget the comment-- just let's get ready to meet him and love him at the resurrection. That's not your call, John. God will decided if Joe is resurrected unto life. Personally, I believe he will be, because he was ignorant in his legalistic theology. He is the main one that got me sidetracked from the gospel. With his help, and his books, I went headlong into legalism. I think he meant well, but he has caused great insecurity among God's faithful. No hope, no peace...just work, work, work with no assurance. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Forget the comment-- just let's get ready to meet him and love him at the resurrection. [/quote'] That's not your call, John. God will decided if Joe is resurrected unto life. Personally, I believe he will be, because he was ignorant in his legalistic theology. He is the main one that got sidetracked from the gospel. With his help, and his books, I went headlong into legalism. I think he meant well, but he has caused great insecurity among God's faithful. No hope, no peace...just work, work, work with no assurance. Rob Sorry you misunderstood, Rob. Should we not be getting ready to meet and love everyone who is resurrected? Do you see where I say that Joe Cruz or anyone in particular will definitely be resurrected? That is all I am saying there: we all need to be getting ready to love everyone at the resurrection. But as for assurance, I believe you are wrong about the lack of assurance. I don't think you understood all that Joe Cruz was preaching. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Quote: Dick Winn, once a conservative, as are most who are associated with Weimar, began to turn so liberal that he no longer had any use for Adventism. So did I understand this equation correctly? In politics: Conservative = rightLiberal = left In theology: Conservative = RightLiberal = wrong Does that sound about right correct? Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Graeme In my personal view ... With politics - Conservative is correct (Right) With theology - Liberal is correct and the only side we should be 'left' with if we are sincerely searching because the conservatives are 'wrong'. So when you say that "Conservative = 'Right'." I have to disagree. I realize that it does get confusing. But I hope this clarifies and helps. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 In theology.........CONSERVATIVE vs LIBERAL? Right vs Wrong? Make your own judgement based on what Jesus recommended: "By their fruits you shall know them". Matt.7:20 You know in today's Adventist world, there are still no accurate reasons why the tithe and offerings in liberal SDA churches are usually less than tithing in conservative's. (you can see one of the little clues at http://www.atoday.com/magazine/1995/01/what-happening-tithing-0) (Small)Businesses or jobs in conservative church members are (not always) usually & mostly stable and have progressive increase in gain/salaries, even in the economic crises. Teen pregnancies and divorce rates are much higher in liberal Adventists. Higher also in high School drop outs. You can see some more of this issues and discouraging statistics about our liberal Adventists friends in http://spectrummagazine.typepad.com/the_spectrum_blog/2007/02/jim_coffin_talk.html or http://greatcontroversy.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Who does the labeling of 'liberal' vs. 'conservative' ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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