Patriotic Duty to Pay Higher Taxes?

[jasd]

>>I think questioning a person's patriotism based on their lack of support for Iraq is wrong.<<

There is a time to indulge in moderate politics - and there is a time to support our boys and girls in harm's way.

That said, I do not question anyone's patriotism re the Iraq war - I charge the men whose mums failed to brass their testaments - with mindlessness; and I charge many of our gentler sex with showing more interest in murder in the womb - than support for ours on battlefields who risk all...

Were our boys and girls out of harm's way - okay, display 'patriotism' with all manner of silliness similar to that which John317 photographed at the Democrat convention - and that occurred at the Republican convention. BBQ red, white, and blue hot dogs. Wear the American Flag on one's bum. Do anything - but not while our troops serve.

If one disagrees with our govt's position - elect representatives who will bring the war to an end. Just don't keep running off at the mouth - demoralizing those who fight for us and our Nation.

The continual sniping denigrates our boy's and girl's efforts in Iraq and is simply repugnant beyond all forbearance.

Questions?

(my text is in the third person)

[jasd]

>>How would you like not being able to buy a pack of gum with your entire life savings?<<

Ahhh, but

The sun'll come out

Tomorrow

Bet your bottom dollar

That tomorrow

There'll be sun!

--Annie

And, in the scenario I've outlined, one would be able to bet whole wagonloads of dollars

[Bravus]

But you see, jasd, with administrations that pursue endless war, your philosophy endlessly bans questioning.

[fccool]

>>I think questioning a person's patriotism based on their lack of support for Iraq is wrong.<<

There is a time to indulge in moderate politics - and there is a time to support our boys and girls in harm's way.

That said, I do not question anyone's patriotism re the Iraq war - I charge the men whose mums failed to brass their testaments - with mindlessness; and I charge many of our gentler sex with showing more interest in murder in the womb - than support for ours on battlefields who risk all...

Were our boys and girls out of harm's way - okay, display 'patriotism' with all manner of silliness similar to that which John317 photographed at the Democrat convention - and that occurred at the Republican convention. BBQ red, white, and blue hot dogs. Wear the American Flag on one's bum. Do anything - but not while our troops serve.

If one disagrees with our govt's position - elect representatives who will bring the war to an end. Just don't keep running off at the mouth - demoralizing those who fight for us and our Nation.

The continual sniping denigrates our boy's and girl's efforts in Iraq and is simply repugnant beyond all forbearance.

Questions?

(my text is in the third person)

See, this is the trap that warmongers set up for the general population. Don't ask questions because it is insulting to the troops. But don't you see the problem with it all? If questions, and statements are not made... nothing will change, because it will seem ok!

My brother in law serves in Iraq, yet I know (and he knows) that he does it out of duty. These are the people who are not allowed to ask questions... it's fight or court marshal. IT'S OUR DUTY TO ASK QUESTIONS AND MAKE STATEMENTS ON THEIR BEHALF. BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CHOICE AND MANY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE!

[Dr. Shane]

Nope, sorry, I'm gonna call 'spin'. Who controlled the Congress in 2001-2004? That's when all the deregulation that caused this mess occurred.

This "mess" goes further back than that. Anyone trying to blame this on either of the political parties is looking at it with too narrow of a focus. There are no innocent hands in Washington and that includes the Federal Reserve.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Nope, sorry, I'm gonna call 'spin'. Who controlled the Congress in 2001-2004? That's when all the deregulation that caused this mess occurred.

This "mess" goes further back than that. Anyone trying to blame this on either of the political parties is looking at it with too narrow of a focus. There are no innocent hands in Washington and that includes the Federal Reserve.

But not the threat to the honey bees and pesticide controls. CCD started in 2002 one year after EPA started using section18 to emerginantly use pesticides without proper test. That threat to our food supply lays at the current administrations door step. and McCain wants the same deregulations????

Hogwash!

[Dr. Shane]

I was talking about the financial crisis - not honey bees. I know little to nothing about honey bees. I know that every Administration makes mistakes and if we want to dwell on only the mistakes we can make every Administration in the history of the country look bad.

[jasd]

>>...administrations that pursue endless war, your philosophy endlessly bans questioning.<<

Nicely phrased. However, I've never witnessed either written in histories or in actuality - our Nation endlessly at war; and it is our Nation of which we speak...

that is not to say that tomorrow will not see reality amended.

[jasd]

>>See, this is the trap that warmongers set up for the general population.<<

Mongering is to buy and sell – to deal in a thing. I’m saying that we’ve long passed the stage of buying and selling the Iraqi war. It was, for all practical purpose, a unanimous decision that cut across Party lines – that saw our Nation off to war; ipso facto, the blank check – the Carte Blanche – Congress gave the Executive Branch of Govt. In conjunction, what I’m saying is

the simple fact is that we are past the point where it may or should have been on the table for Natl debate. We are in the phase where our Nation is prosecuting the war. That calls for every effort on the part of every citizen to make the sacrifices required in terms of materiel and moral(e) support – that this war be prosecuted in a manner that will see our boys and girls returned home with both victory and honour in hand; saying nothing, about our Nation.

>>Don't ask questions because it is insulting to the troops.<<

It is not so much insulting as it is denigrating – their efforts; if fact, demoralizing. That demoralization of our boys and girls should be left to the practicing Fifth Column; that is, the Fourth Estate.

>>But don't you see the problem with it all? If questions, and statements are not made... nothing will change, because it will seem ok!<<

We are at war. To assert and to insert our tiny bits of information into the equation – as supposedly superior to those whose careers and professions are steeped in the art of war – is

simple, and I stress simple, arrogance.

>>My brother in law serves in Iraq, yet I know (and he knows) that he does it out of duty. These are the people who are not allowed to ask questions... it's fight or court marshal.<<

Ours is a volunteer service. One chooses to serve – in whatever capacity his or her Nation decides is in the best interest of its entire citizenry.

>>IT'S OUR DUTY TO ASK QUESTIONS AND MAKE STATEMENTS ON THEIR BEHALF. BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CHOICE AND MANY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE!<<

Then they should not have volunteered. I’ve already lost 3 members of my greater family to the war – with another – both mentally/emotionally and physically impaired for life. None ever squeaked, squealed, or whined about the decision made to serve their Nation. It strains, utterly, my patience to forbear

the academic arguments of the perennially disaffected – for the very paucity of their gravitas.

[olger]

Yes. According to Obama's side kick ... Joe Biden ...

It is your patriotic duty to pay Higher Taxes.

Yep ... those Demos are after your pocketbook.

Cool. Now the liberals can use patrioguilt to dig further into your wallet.

"If you love your country, you will sell your car and send the money to us ASAP. Or we will send the army to collect it !!"

Thanks much,

Your Loving Liberals

[Dr. Shane]

Ask not how much your country will give to you but how much you can give to your country.

[Bravus]

Um... so the 700 billion dollars of taxpayers money that will be given the Secretary Paulson this week with which to buy bad, high-risk debt that corporations chose to buy and made huge amounts of money on... where is that going to come from? That's real money, being used to shield those who made big wins on their risky bets from having to take the corresponding big losses. And it can't just appear out of nowhere. So if not taxes, where? More international borrowing? That just passes the tax burden on to the next generation.

It's breathtaking that the Republicans can destroy the economy so thoroughly and then have the gall to start trying to blame the Democrats. Absolutely no shame.

[olger]

Um... Human beings are endowed by their creator with the characteristics of creativity and productivity. Everyone is good at some kind of productive, valuable work. That work is rewarded in our socieity with money - but the value of our work and the amount of that reward are only loosely related. If they were directly related, teachers, firemen and policemen would be the highest paid people in America. But your paycheck is just a convenient way to recognize your output and a convenient way to run a society. The work itself is its own reward - the ability to create and produce is an exercise of the soul.

Since I own a business and have employees, I don't get as many opportunities to actually put my hands on equipment and instruments and stuff as I used to - but since Ike came through Ohio, I've had a few chances to do the kind of work that I started doing in 1984 and that I love doing. There's nothing like the serenity of going out to work at some site, working on equipment all day, making it work better, making it more reliable, making it more efficient, eating lunch out of a paper bag in your truck, and going home at the end of the day with equal parts sweat and accomplishment. I dearly love doing that. When I get paid for doing that, whatever the figure is, I feel like my employer doesn't owe me a thing. It's like motocross. At its core, motocross is an exercise in searching for exactly the right line, exactly the right velocity, exactly the right rider inputs that will create a rhythm that synchronizes itself with your soul. It's really not even about winning and losing. It's about riding. It's about creativity and finding satisfaction, one rider at a time. Work isn't about wealth. Work is about work.

But when I pull up my ROTH and I try to figure out how to maximize my profits or protect myself from loss, that's meaningless to me. It is neither productive nor creative. It is nothing more than an exercise in greed and fear.

The social construct that says you have to be rich, you have to know all about investing, you have to retire at 55 with a million dollars - and that your wealth and your work are unrelated - is a lie that steals the value of work from people.

As far as I'm concerned, all those financial houses deserve to die. Let 'em crash. If the government wants to put money into the system, let them lend it directly to businesses that create jobs that offer people the chance to work. Let America be a country in which creative, productive people make things and do things that soothe their souls and build the nation.

I'm olger and I approve this rant.

[Woody]

Um... so the 700 billion dollars of taxpayers money that will be given the Secretary Paulson this week with which to buy bad, high-risk debt that corporations chose to buy and made huge amounts of money on... where is that going to come from? That's real money, being used to shield those who made big wins on their risky bets from having to take the corresponding big losses. And it can't just appear out of nowhere. So if not taxes, where? More international borrowing? That just passes the tax burden on to the next generation.

It's breathtaking that the Republicans can destroy the economy so thoroughly and then have the gall to start trying to blame the Democrats. Absolutely no shame.

The leaders of this trouble were in the bank with Obama. Fox News reported that the leaders of these companies gave the most to Obama and he had them lead out in his campaign.

The fault goes with the Demos not the Republicans.

May I ask who it is that controls the House and Senate?

The President doesn't make law.

[Bravus]

I'm Bravus and I approve olger's approval of his rant.

[Bravus]

Redwood - asked and answered elsewhere. The deregulation that largely caused the present mess ocurred in 2001-2004. Who controlled Congress then?

The fact that the industry leaders can pick a winner and are contributing to Obama now has nothing to do with the decisions being made now, because he's not making them, Bush is. (By the way, I think Obama should return the donations from Fannie and Freddie and some of the other players in this mess.) Youre' confusing effects with causes.

Republicans: the party of personal responsibility.

[Woody]

Quote:

I'm Bravus and I approve olger's approval of his rant.

This is gettin out of hand ...

And it is my patriotic duty to point this out ...

[Woody]

Redwood - asked and answered elsewhere. The deregulation that largely caused the present mess ocurred in 2001-2004. Who controlled Congress then?

The fact that the industry leaders can pick a winner and are contributing to Obama now has nothing to do with the decisions being made now, because he's not making them, Bush is. (By the way, I think Obama should return the donations from Fannie and Freddie and some of the other players in this mess.) Youre' confusing effects with causes.

Republicans: the party of personal responsibility.

So for all these years after the Demos gained power ... they just sat on this issue and did NOTHING. Doesn't sound like the party for change that I want.

[olger]

Redwood, should we fix all of Australia's problems?

[Bravus]

If Republicans truly believed in small government, they would be horrified by the government nationalising major mortgage lenders and a huge insurance company. Government control of industries is socialism: just what John has been posting half a dozen posts a day about in relation to Obama for months. Where's the outcry?

[Bravus]

Quote:

So for all these years after the Demos gained power ... they just sat on this issue and did NOTHING. Doesn't sound like the party for change that I want.

Yes, they did do nothing. Don't worry, I'm horrified by the rubber-stamp behaviour of the Congressional Democrats. I just think it's nonsense to sheet all the blame home to them. Look at your post, in translation: "We Republicans made a horrendous mess, and YOU DEMOCRATS FAILED TO CLEAN IT UP".

Olger, by all means please do!

[Tom Wetmore]

TU

Seriously, what is missing in our collective rant on this particular topic is the context of Biden's statement. And all of the McCain/Republican/FoxNoise spin-miestering also conveniently misses the point.

Biden was speaking specifically of the Obama plan to level out/roll back the huge tax breaks for the wealthy - those making over $250,000/year. And he essentially echoed the statement of the second richest man in America, Warren Buffett, who said that the tax rate on the wealthiest should be increased. It is his view that the wealthy are not even close to paying their fair share.

Tom

[Woody]

Redwood, should we fix all of Australia's problems?

Bravus ... BTW ... Olger did not put his stamp of approval on this one ... and I don't approve of it either.

I may disagree with your comments ... but I do appreciate them. You are welcome here.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Republicans: the party of personal responsibility.

So for all these years after the Demos gained power ... they just sat on this issue and did NOTHING. Doesn't sound like the party for change that I want.

No, you didn't read that post from Salon...The Dems were given information that was deemed reliable and then told that the administration needed this legislation RIGHT NOW!....and based upon the info, they did.

What is that called when the car salesman knows you are interested in a car, and after a few minutes comes back and says, " There are others here who are also interested in it. If you want this car, buy now. Otherwise, we can sell it to the other costumer."

Seems to me, that the dems need to tell the adminstration, "we'll get back to you on that."

[Dr. Shane]

If Republicans truly believed in small government, they would be horrified by the government nationalising major mortgage lenders and a huge insurance company... Where's the outcry?

I can't speak for Republicans and I don't favor what many consider "small" government. I do think however we have a gun to our heads. There isn't a lot of choice. If we let these institutions go down as they deserve, money will tighten up, banks will stop giving loans, business will stop expanding, people will stop buying cars and houses, unemployment will explode.