Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?

[Woody]

Quote:

Rush: "To say everyone in the world is your brother and sister sounds good, but I'm not sure it's Biblical.

1 Cor. 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

So, there's a difference between those that are without and those that are within."

This was what he said. Not my words ... but HIS.

[Amelia]

railer is another word for reviler. Reviler means "To assail with abusive language". So I guess a railer would be one who shouts and swears alot.

[Woody]

Thanks Amelia.

My point is this:

If we exclude Catholics as Christian brothers and sisters as Rush is stating in this thread ... Then we would have to exclude many more Christians because of a list of sins including being 'railers' as Rush has submitted.

But the Bible and EGW state that a sin is a sin. And if you are quilty of one you are guilty of all. So, pretty soon the list of those who are not worthy of being called brothers and sisters ... would grow and grow. Pretty soon ... all ... including Rush, Redwood, and Amelia would be excluded.

[Woody]

With the above in mind ... check out the definition of railer:

Quote:

dictionary results for: Railer

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

rail2 /reɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[reyl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used without object)

1. to utter bitter complaint

[Amelia]

Very true. I for one believe everyone is worthy of being called brother or sister. Everyone is worthy of love regardless of their sins and failings. Granted, it's hard to love so many out in the world today but if Jesus did it, we can certainly attempt it.

[Woody]

[rush4hire]

What do you think the definition of a railer might be?

[Bravus]

God loves everyone. God loves everyone equally.

We love God only as much as the person we love least.

[Woody]

Quote:

Those who have friendship with the world are enemies with God.

Then I am an enemy of God. For I intend to make friendships with all of those in the world. If we don't make friends ... we can't bring them to Christ.

[phkrause]

good post redwood

pk

[Amelia]

Quote:

If we don't make friends ... we can't bring them to Christ.

Amen

[rush4hire]

Jesus said love your enemies. So you have enemies. There are people who want Christ's followers dead so the Pope's authority will be uncontested. They are not your brothers and sisters. If they are, then you also are the enemy of Christ and His people.

So, I'm not saying don't love your enemies. I agree with Christ that we should. If we love our enemies, there's a much better chance to see that they war against themselves, and decide to repent and become our friends. Your enemies can't be your brothers, sisters, and friends too. It's just not possible to be a friend and an enemy at the same time. That doesn't make sense.

Anyway, the angel of Revelation 18 tells us that we have to take a side. We will either take the Mark of the Beast or the Seal of God. There is a difference:

[color:#BF0000]Exo. 11:7 that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

Malachi 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

So, there's a difference between the righteous and the wicked, between those that serve God and those who don't.

But of course love your enemies. We where enemies of Christ and His people at one time, and He loved us, and it was that love that caused us to repent and to forsake our sins, and join with the people of God.

But if you can't quote Scripture or EGW, that says "we are all brothers in Christ", or "Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ", I'm going to have to reject it, until you come up with a verse. These seem like Ecumenical sentiments, to me. Then that would make you Ecumenical, and not a true Seventh Day Adventist. And your testimony will prove false.

Also Ellen White does not say "Catholics are Christians, too." She does say AMONG the Catholics, there are Christians. There's a BIG difference.

Quote:

Among the Catholics there are many who are most conscientious Christians, and who walk in all the light that shines upon them, and God will work in their behalf.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 243.

That is the only phrase that comes up in EGW software if you do a search for the words "Catholics" and "Christians", in the same paragraph.

And Jesus did not say all the flocks will merge, or all the flocks are His, or all the sheep are His. He said he has sheep in other folds, AMONG those other sheep, and they will come out when they here the Shepherds voice and come out and there will be one fold.

[color:#BF0000]John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

You can count on it, that if they are Christ's, they WILL come out. But realize, the Shepherd's voice is not one that glosses over over sin and corruption, but He makes it very clear:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Lest anyone get any false sense of hope, you will not go to heaven, unless....

This Ecumenical voice, on the other hand, is the voice of a false shepherd.

[rush4hire]

God loves everyone.

This is a very common phrase, but unfortunately no prophet has ever uttered such a phrase. It is not found in the Bible or EGW writings, in any way, shape, or form.

[color:#BF0000]Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

So God hates those who are wicked and love violence. They are probably the ones that are too far gone. The light of Christ, "which lighteth every man that cometh into the world", (John 1:9), is completely out. The conscience is "seared with a hot iron", (1 Tim. 4:2). And the Lord knoweth them, but we can't tell.

[color:#BF0000]Psalms 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, [and] thine enemies take [thy name] in vain.

139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

139:24 And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

David loved his enemies:

[color:#BF0000]Prov. 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

But he did not love the enemies of God Himself. In fact he hated them with a perfect hatred. And David was a prophet of the Most High.

If you hate me, OK. Sometimes I hate myself, but if you hate God, you have no excuse. God is your Creator.

And hating Christ is not the same thing as hating God Himself. It's not the same thing as hating the Holy Ghost:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Because Christ speaks to you, as a man speaks to you. But the Holy Ghost speaks to you as God Himself, as your conscience, and makes it undeniably plain.

So, how do you reconcile that with the fact that Jesus loved us, while we where yet enemies? Simple. We where enemies in our ignorance:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

3:15 And killed the Prince of life....

...

3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.

We killed Jesus. But we where ignorant. If not, we can't have forgiveness:

[color:#BF0000]John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

But we have to understand. There are some who are too far gone. Who will never repent. They are permanently hardened against the commandments of God.

Do we know the difference now? No. But soon we will.

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 13:28 ...Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So, there where tares there the whole time. We just can't tell them apart until the harvest.

So we assume the best for everyone. We evangelize everyone. If they reject us, we just move on. We don't curse them. We don't assume they have rejected God because they reject us. We don't have to think about those things.

[color:#BF0000]John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Why does God love you? Because you have loved Jesus. That's what it says. And "We love him, because he first loved us.", (1 John 4:19).

If I stand before an audience, and say "The Lord loves you", then that's an OK thing to say. I would be assuming the people I spoke to, generally loved Jesus, or they would not have come to hear my sermon about Jesus. But I would never say "The Lord loves everybody", because the Bible doesn't say that.

[John317]

I believe that we need to tell what the Bible teaches but the Holy Spirit would have us communicate it lovingly. There are times for speaking strongly about these things, but we have to careful that we don't do in a way that will cause estrangement rather than attraction.

My wife was Catholic when we got married, and needless to say, I was not a Christian, although I knew the doctrines. Today she and some of her family are Seventh-day Adventists. I began by simply leaving pamphlets and magazines around the house and for over 2 years I didn't say too much about religion. I would take her to the Catholic Church to light candles and I'd sit in church with her during Mass. We would occasionally read the Bible together. Then one day she asked me if she could go to church with me, and of course I said, "Yes." So I took her to the Spanish-speaking Adventist church in Loma Linda. She attended there for about about 2 years before she requested to be baptized. In the meantime she introduced 2 people to the church, and these also became Adventists. Now she has a niece and her husband who come up from Mexico and go to the church with us, and we expect they also will eventually be baptized. The husband's mother is already a Seventh-day Adventist.

I can guarantee you that none of this would have happened if I had approached my wife and these other people with hard thrusts or attacks.

All of my wife's family-- and she is from a family of 10 brothers and sister-- are interested, but they wouldn't be if I came on like "gang-busters" and talked about Jesuits and all the evil things Catholics do or have done.

(It's not that I don't believe a lot that you say, either. It is just that it's not the way to attract people to Christ and to our message.)

[Guest truthseeker007]

John and Rush4hire i am not good at this stuff, but couldn t it be true that nowadays we should only take the New Testament as the best way to deal with things. Jesus came to change a lot of things, for instance he said that you should love your enemies etc. Jesus also told us for instance that divorce was only allowed because their hearts were so hard, but that it was not meant to be this way from the beginning. I think that the old testament is inferior to the New testament. Prophets reflect some of the light of God while Jesus is God himself.

[John317]

There is no question that the New Testament contains what Martin Luther called "the purest gospel." Like you point out, Jesus made the new way really clear. He was God, as you say, and spoke as such, whereas the prophets wrote about their encounter with God as they experienced Him through dreams and vision. Both are valid, but Jesus' words are much more directly a revelation of what God is like. One thing good to remember is that Jesus indicated that if the Father had come here instead of Jesus, we wouldn't have seen any difference between what was said and done. The Father himself loves us as much as Jesus does. I find that an amazing and wonderful thought, don't you?

[Guest truthseeker007]

Of course that s wonderfull. I still hope God has the right kind of attitude like Jesus had when he walked on this planet. I hope that God doesn t feel like saying to himself "i have suffered so much so now i want those earthly wurms to suffer as well". I still hope God is filled with good intentions and helps to form the sda movement. I think that as time goes along, we should cling more and more to each other for support. I just wish the adventists were not so divided into families, liberals, legalists, etc. but instead that we could be one family. I hate the 'us' and 'them' mentality inside the church. That s why i appreciate your support on this forum. The only place where i can speak freely without others playing for judge. If i would talk on any other religious forum i wouldn t get as much support, patience and understanding as i do receive here. Somehow this must mean that the fruits of the holy spirit are right here on this board. I hope you ll continue to be mutually supporting of each other.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

God loves everyone.

This is a very common phrase, but unfortunately no prophet has ever uttered such a phrase. It is not found in the Bible or EGW writings, in any way, shape, or form.

[snip]

If I stand before an audience, and say "The Lord loves you", then that's an OK thing to say. I would be assuming the people I spoke to, generally loved Jesus, or they would not have come to hear my sermon about Jesus. But I would never say "The Lord loves everybody", because the Bible doesn't say that.

John 3:16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Premise Translation: God loves everyone BEFORE He sent His Son...

Application: If God loves us, we need to show the same love toward everyone.

I John 4: 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sin

[carolaa]

I still hope God has the right kind of attitude like Jesus had when he walked on this planet. I hope that God doesn t feel like saying to himself "i have suffered so much so now i want those earthly wurms to suffer as well".

The God of the New Testament is the same God that's in the Old Testament, and that God IS Jesus. He does not change; He simply meets us where we are. If He loves us at one time, He also loves us at another time - He doesn't change His mind about it.

[rush4hire]

I believe that we need to tell what the Bible teaches but the Holy Spirit would have us communicate it lovingly. There are times for speaking strongly about these things, but we have to careful that we don't do in a way that will cause estrangement rather than attraction.

I appreciate your burden, John. But to say that God gives us a testimony, and a message that makes us unloving, is like making an accusation against God. Of course you have to be cautious. The Word is a sword. You have to be careful with a sword.

So, when dealing with Catholics, we show compassion and pity. When dealing with Adventists, we are generally more strait forward. Here:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Now pity comes naturally. There's no such thing as pillow safety, but if you own a gun, you have to know gun safety. Or "sword-safety" if you will. He have lots of examples of compassion. But let's look at some examples of fear:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

There's no way to improve upon that. To say so would be blasphemy. He was full of the Holy Ghost. That was the Holy Ghost speaking through Peter.

[color:#BF0000]Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

....

4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

And that worked perfectly:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, .... they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

These where Jews. Not gentiles.

Now, what if Peter started talking about the love of God, and all this other stuff. No one would have listened.

And we have many more examples. Jesus charges us with innocent blood. This is to call us to repent:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

....

23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify[some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

You probably would have rebuked Jesus. That's why you probably would not have been among the 12 disciples in the first place, for your lack of discernment.

So, where are we at?

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

When is that blood found? After the 2nd coming? NO. By then it would be too late. After the 2nd coming, there won't be any more innocent blood crying from the earth. Abel's blood will be resurrected, with all the martyrs, and all those at Waco, who where innocent. That blood crieth from the earth RIGHT NOW:

[color:#BF0000]Gen. 4:10 ..the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

White robes where given unto every one of them. Do you not see the white robe on John Huss, who was maliciously slandered, whom everyone believed to be a big cult leader, because that's what the media said, whom the people trusted. And the FBI went and shut John Huss's church down, and put it under interdict. Well he must be guilty. Then they locked him up for years and published false reports about him to justify their condemnation of him. And the people believed these things, for a long time. Then a white robe was given to John Huss, and the people realized, he was not the monster the Papacy made him out to be, but they murdered him, to cover for their own sins. Because he threatened their system.

Right now, I need to prove myself that I'm not a coward. Because I know no coward will be in heaven:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, ..... and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So, send the FBI, the ATF, the Special Forces. Let the president of the United States tell the world I was a child molester, a child-porn king-pin, a tax evader, a polygamist, an adulterer, and whatever else. Let them burn down my house, with my whole family and Bible study group in it. And let everyone not ever question the published report, and let even my own brethren repeat the lies against me and condemn me falsely, and take sides with the murderers and liars.

What does the Bible say, John? Is this some "special light" that we have as Adventists?

[color:#BF0000]Exo. 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest [judgment]:

....

23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.

23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

....

23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

It is my brethren that I rebuke, not the Catholics, for not keeping themselves from a false matter. For being fearful and unbelieving. For putting their hand in with a false witness and raising a false report. For declining after many to wrest judgment. For repeating the lies of the Papacy against David Koresh, Tony Alamo, Alberto Rivera, among others..

Even if David Koresh was your enemy or if he hated you, don't lie about him.

Ah! I don't want to hear about the Davidian doctrine, or anything at all. It doesn't matter. Just don't repeat a lie and justify the murder of the Branch Davidians, or of any other "cults", or you will surely drink their blood in the plagues.

[rush4hire]

I can guarantee you that none of this would have happened if I had approached my wife and these other people with hard thrusts or attacks.

[John317]

I have no problem whatsoever with talking straightforwardly about these matters with others Seventh-day Adventists.

The issue here on the Forum is that many are not Seventh-day Adventists.

As for insight, Rush, you do not know what you are talking about. That is merely your opinion, but you give out those things as if you know people personally. I don't do that because I recognize that I do not know you.

I have a responsibility here on the Forum which I take seriously, and it has nothing to do with reflecting my personal opinion of whether you are right in the information given.

So frankly, friend, you cannot tell what my personal insights might be on this question since I have not talked to you about these things.

[rush4hire]

I have a responsibility here on the Forum which I take seriously, and it has nothing to do with reflecting my personal opinion of whether you are right in the information given.

[Stan]

The moderator has the right to set the tone in his/her forum.

feel free to go elsewhere is this is too much of a burden.. that is how it is.

[Robert]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does YOUR righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees? Please remember that these dudes were full time law keepers. They kept all the law, not just the 10 you claim to keep. Hence, YOUR righteousness must exceed theirs.

If you continue on up to verse 48 where Christ sums what He means by, "except your righteousness shall exceed the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" you'll end up here:

You, therefore, must be perfect, [how perfect?] as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You know what Ellen says of those who claim perfection, right? She states that they are deceived...they are delusional. It always helps to know the background of what you are quoting. If not, you just end up contradicting yourself!

Rob