I Voted - Have You?

[carolaa]

Yes, I'm a Christian, and that didn't begin to answer my question. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[carolaa]

They can not see the real argument and can not make distinctions accurately. Real people think, and real people KNOW that life is not always black and white, good or bad, Adventist or non-Adventist, Christian or Anti-Christian.Occasionally, it is....but mostly, it is NOT...and as a result, they can not reason out the problem....They live in a box and when problems come outside the box, they attempt to move the boundarys or redefine the boundarys.

Don't ask me why, as I sure don't know.....

Yeah, that makes sense, kind of. I'm not sure it will ever make sense to me.

But, hey, all you anti-choice people out there. If you have not voted yet, you will want to read this. Here is 3rd party candidate Chuck Baldwin's position on abortion:

The pre-born child, whose life begins at fertilization, is a human being created in God's image. The first duty of the law is to prevent the shedding of innocent blood. It is, therefore, the duty of all civil governments, and that certainly includes the office of the President of the United States, to secure and to safeguard the lives of the pre-born. I affirm the God-given legal person hood of all unborn human beings, without exception.

In addition to guaranteeing the legal person hood of the unborn, Ron Paul's Sanctity of Life Act, which I wholeheartedly support, would strip the appellate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court in all cases of abortion in accordance with the U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 2. This would mean that Roe v. Wade would immediately pass away as any legal authority on this issue. There would be no need to worry about putting a Supreme Court on the bench that might eventually make the right decision on this issue. We can, therefore, end legal abortion immediately upon enactment of the Sanctity of Life Act.

Republicans tout themselves as being "pro-life." Yet, the GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the White House for six years and did absolutely nothing to overturn Roe or end abortion-on-demand. If the Republicans were really serious about being pro-life the could have already ended legal abortion in America. Obviously the Republican Party and most GOP politicians are not serious about ending abortion, but are, regrettably, simply content to perpetuate the issue to manipulate pro-life voters.

Under my administration, we could end legal abortion in a matter of days, not decades. And if Congress refuses to pass Dr. Paul's bill, I will use the constitutional power of the Presidency to deny funds to protect abortion clinics. Either way, legalized abortion ends when I take office.

The emphasis is mine, because I totally believe that the Republican leadership are hypocrites when it comes to abortion, and I am pleased to see a candidate who agrees with me! Anyone who is truly opposed to making abortion illegal should vote for this guy and not waste their vote on the Republican Party.

The link is www.baldwin08.com.

[Woody]

All well and good. But he will never be Prez.

[carolaa]

True, and abortion will remain legal.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

It's because they are "bent", Carolaa. They can not see the real argument and can not make distinctions accurately. Real people think, and real people KNOW that life is not always black and white, good or bad, Adventist or non-Adventist, Christian or Anti-Christian.Occasionally, it is....but mostly, it is NOT...and as a result, they can not reason out the problem....They live in a box and when problems come outside the box, they attempt to move the boundarys or redefine the boundarys.

Don't ask me why, as I sure don't know.....

Neil, when I read thou Shalt not kill I can not come up with a reason to support abortion. Unlike a war where the warriors have armor and weapons to fight, an unborn child is utterly defenseless. As a Bible believing Seventh-day Adventist, I realize that God knows us in the mother's womb at time of conception. Therefore He will never tell us to kill, abort or terminate the life of His children. There's no black and white here it's a direct commandment Neil.

If the consequences have been so severe just because Adam and Eve ate some fruit, how much worse is it to not only disobey but to redefine what God has called life; and then to kill and say that it's ok because it's a woman's right???

To grant that as a priviledge because a few have some medical issues is overkill, pardon the unintended pun. The weakest arguement for abortion are those who say, what about rape or incest or medical sicknesses. You know I hate to be cold and uncaring but there are women in the world who have gone through a lot worse and they don't ask for the life of their unborn.

I am not a doctor and I am not a statitionist but I will go out an a limb and say that 90% of all abortions have nothing to do with the circumstances that are touted by those who are so interested in themselves, that they always hurt others while trying to appear compassionate.

Compassion is defined as such

Abortion: compassionate to women but kills children

Welfare (longterm) compassionate to the poor but leaves them unable to fish for themselves (if you get my drift)

A health care system: take taxes from Those who don't need a health care system because they did things right.

I am not saying that it's wrong to help people; what I am saying is that Government should not be doing it. Especially taking it from one clase and giving it to another and creating class envy to reach their goals

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Carolaa,

prochoice means that a woman can choose to kill her child. Abort means to terminate a process which is the same thing. Dont' play around with words it only to your loss. That's pro abortion how else is she going to chose to dispose of her "fetus"

Here's some statements from Obama, taken from his website.

Quote:

"Throughout my career, I've been a consistent and strong supporter of reproductive justice, and have consistently had a 100% pro-choice rating with Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America."

Reproductive Justice? Justice for who?

Quote:

When South Dakota passed a law banning all abortions in a direct effort to have Roe overruled, I was the only candidate for President to raise money to help the citizens of South Dakota repeal that law.

There's a twist on words and forcing abortion on the majority who don't want it! He's making it look like the people wanted abortion but someone whoever that may be did not want it. So because of this in justice of allow the unborn a chance to live, he joined with others to force abortion on them.

He says to help citizens repeal the law. I think it was probably the abortion mill that he was helping ot the citizens they already through their elected officials said they didn't want it. Why not just respect their choice if he wants people to have a choice? But no, he has to join in and force this on that state. Am I wrong here? Doesn't it seem like he's abortion happy?

This is how I see the pro choice movement. "Feel good, don't face your guilt and live without a conscience. We'll tell those evil prolife people that an abortion is good and you are good there's no right or wrong we just can't have guilt or condemnation."

How many abortions have you had Carolaa?

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

The emphasis is mine, because I totally believe that the Republican leadership are hypocrites when it comes to abortion, and I am pleased to see a candidate who agrees with me! Anyone who is truly opposed to making abortion illegal should vote for this guy and not waste their vote on the Republican Party.

I like what he says but he's missing one major point.

When in power, the Repubican could not pass that because they never had enough votes to do so. Don't you remember how many things were tied up and nothing was getting done because the Republicans never had enough votes. They needed more than 51% to get something passed and they didn't have that.

That guy as forgotten how politics operates. I know and I am not even American. He's trying to get elected what else can I say.

Norman

[Dr. Shane]

Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion.

It shouldn't be but sadly in American politics it most often is. Many pro-choice organizations fight against any attempts to restrict and discourage abortion, including the public funding of crisis pregnancy centers. It is a very sad commentary.

[carolaa]

I don't know why it is so difficult for some people to understand the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion. Pro-choice doesn't mean a person is in necessarily in favor of abortions. It simply means they believe that choice should be made by the woman and those close to her, who understand the circumstances. It should not be an issue of coercion, either way. But I guess we just disagree.

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion.

It shouldn't be but sadly in American politics it most often is. Many pro-choice organizations fight against any attempts to restrict and discourage abortion, including the public funding of crisis pregnancy centers. It is a very sad commentary.

Yes, I agree with you it's sad. And that's something I would be in favor of changing.

[Dr. Shane]

How many abortions have you had Carolaa?

Norman

I think that is getting a bit personal. Let's try to keep this discussion focused on ideas and policy and not focus on other members of the forum.

[carolaa]

the Republican Party and most GOP politicians are not serious about ending abortion, but are, regrettably, simply content to perpetuate the issue to manipulate pro-life voters.

I wonder how the pro-lifers feel when they find out how they are being manipulated to vote for candidates who pretend to be anti-abortion but are really just using the issue to get votes.

[Dr. Shane]

I wonder how the pro-lifers feel when they find out how they are being manipulated to vote for candidates who pretend to be anti-abortion but are really just using the issue to get votes.

I don't believe that is true for a moment. I believe that most that are pro-life are very sincere. They believe that abortion is to America today what slavery was at its founding. That is, the greatest moral stain in our culture. Most that are pro-life believe that by banning abortion millions of babies would be saved. For Catholics the practice is especially objectionable because they believe life begins at conception and if a baby dies before being baptized he or she is condemned to hell. Of course I disagree with that but at the same time I respect them for their dedication and sincerity.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I wonder how the pro-lifers feel when they find out how they are being manipulated to vote for candidates who pretend to be anti-abortion but are really just using the issue to get votes.

That's is just not true. As I pointed out they had no ability to make those changes due to the lack of votes and the bottlenecking due to democrats while the republicans ran the house and senate.

NOrman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I think that is getting a bit personal. Let's try to keep this discussion focused on ideas and policy and not focus on other members of the forum.

Shane if a woman has had an abortion, there's nothing personal about that. It just a medical proceedure to remove some mass of flesh. There is a nothing that had to be removed. I had a mole removed once, it's about the same thing and I don't think it's personal.

Norman

[carolaa]

Quote:

I think that is getting a bit personal. Let's try to keep this discussion focused on ideas and policy and not focus on other members of the forum.

Shane if a woman has had an abortion, there's nothing personal about that. It just a medical proceedure to remove some mass of flesh. There is a nothing that had to be removed. I had a mole removed once, it's about the same thing and I don't think it's personal.

Well, I am the one you were asking, and I already stated I think it is a highly personal and traumatic decision. I know you are just being sarcastic and trying to make a point, but no one is saying it's not a big deal.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Well, I am the one you were asking, and I already stated I think it is a highly personal and traumatic decision. I know you are just being sarcastic and trying to make a point, but no one is saying it's not a big deal.

I am sorry that I posed the question but did not ask it to get any specific answer. I posed it simply to get a response. Why? Just to show you that when a question is asked there is some reply made. If you had not said anything the idea would be that maybe she did have one and that's why she's for this, right?

But when Mr. Obama was asked about fining small businesses he did not respond. However he did respond in another area. He said that there would be a penalty for parents who did not have health insurance for their kids.

That poses a problem for those who for religious reasons will not get health insurance. It also poses a problem for those who are going through a difficult time. And what about all the mothers on welfare that are addicted to drugs, who can't work but get welfare and cannot control themselves? Well maybe since he's familiar with being a dope head he might come up with a solution.

Anyhow that was the reason for the question.

Norman

[Tammy]

I appreciate your reasoning, Norman. Keep up the good posting!

I think it is very revealing that the Pro-Death side never produces any Bible or Spirit of Prophecy quotes to support their views....

[lazarus]

Carolaa,

How many abortions have you had Carolaa?

Norman

How low can you go?

The use of "How many" is the give away!

It's weird how folks who seem to have such a passion for unborn can be so nasty to those who are already born. It seems like a common trait.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Carolaa,

How many abortions have you had Carolaa?

Norman

How low can you go?

The use of "How many" is the give away!

It's weird how folks who seem to have such a passion for unborn can be so nasty to those who are already born. It seems like a common trait.

And verbally martyred for their faith.... as if this is something that their faith requires...

It's the ol' " I must be doing something right if I am persecuted for my beliefs' argument....

What they don't understand is that not only are they a problem [they have relationship problems usually], they can not see the world in any other way.

As I have said before...the world is not black and white, nor is it digital, nor is it "either or"...It's mostly grey, and there are many various shades of grey....

[Dr. Shane]

It's weird how folks who seem to have such a passion for unborn can be so nasty to those who are already born. It seems like a common trait.

I disagree. Just go down to any local crisis pregnancy center and volunteer a few hours. Those centers have loving and dedicated workers filled with compassion - many of them volunteers.

[lazarus]

You're right. I over stated it.

It's not necessarily a common trait but certainly a trait i've seen here recently

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

As I have said before...the world is not black and white, nor is it digital, nor is it "either or"...It's mostly grey, and there are many various shades of grey....

Hi Neil, I have something to add to that. I agree that it can be gray most of the time. But hat is not the way it should be. We have just become so acustom to compromise that we have made things gray or is it grey, anyway, we have messed ourselves up.

Now here's a situation that is not gray. If someone comes up to you with a gun and says give me your money so I can enjoy myself or you will die. You have no thoughts of grey, you just start praying and give them your wallet. You don't start saying. "Well let me see what I should keep from them, I'll try to sneak this credit card out." Things are black and white at that moment and they always are, in a crisis.

Abortion may not be a crisis for the woman who has gone and slept with whoever, but it sure is for the unborn baby. They don't have the luxury of grey and if they did have a choice to live, how many of them would say, "kill me so this woman can enjoy herself some more at my expense?"

No, children were not given to us to sacrifice, at any cost. This kind of behavior got nations destroyed.

Norman

[Neil D]

Quote:

As I have said before...the world is not black and white, nor is it digital, nor is it "either or"...It's mostly grey, and there are many various shades of grey....

Hi Neil, I have something to add to that. I agree that it can be gray most of the time. But that is not the way it should be. We have just become so acustom to compromise that we have made things gray or is it grey, anyway, we have messed ourselves up.

Norman

I am sorry to point this out, Norm...but I am talking about a real world...it is NOT black or white....But the world that you are talking about is a "should" world...a mythical world,ie..one that doesn't exist...Perhaps it's a perfect world...in any case, what you are asking for is a leap in logic...one that I can not agree with....

Good luck in your perfect world...it's one that I can not work in...

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Have you considered the words of Jesus?

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

There are two ways to live in this world. The straight and narrow way and the other road that is wide and leads to destruction.

When one lives in a gray world they can be of little help when the chips are down. Overwhelmed with emotions they are not accustomed to making decisive choices and fail when the opportunity arises to show what they are made of and saddly reveal which road they travel on.

He who is faithful in little things (sees right and wrong and choose the right regardless of circumstances) is faithful in big things. This is one of the biggest lessons Jesus taught us.

It may not be a perfect world but we are not of this world and therefore we should live under God's laws and not man's ideas, traditions or laws that conflict with the decalogue. If we do, then when this world is over we will be over with it.

Again what would the unborn say if he/she were presented with the option of dying for their mother's behavior? Where's their grey area? There's always adoption and surgery. We have so many medical advancements and so many more could be invented if given the opportunity to exercise creativity in this area. Do I mean letting some people die in this search for an answer? Yes, people die in the search for all kinds of cures and medicines. The more urgent the ailment the more pressing and urgent will be the search for the cure or technology to help out.

With God's blessing there is nothing that man could not do to save a mother and child and if someone dies as the result of an attempt to save lives, that is much better than just ending a life.

It's just so easy and degrading to just give up on a baby because some people with an agenda want to have this around.

Norman