Guest Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Well, it's that time of year again. You know..when the liquor industry sees if their sales projections exceed, meet or fall short of their forecasts. EGW, WCTU, prohibition...what an era..check out some writings.. I was involved in 3 court martials in the service where I testified. 2 got kicked out with bad conduct discharges and 2 lost a stripe each. Then there are other booze related incidents while growing up. Because of the experience, I always get bounced from jury duty with drinking related crimes. This is the time of year I repeat my BOOZERS R LOSERS community service announcements for the media. You can call up radio talk shows and put your 2 cents in like I do..doesn't cost a penney. 800 numbers. You can even do shock announcements like drinkers are immature irresponsible cowardly losers who need to get a life... that gets the attention of some. Look at this week's sabbath school lesson. Don't you hear tangents on appetite and diet with this theme? Guess what? Here is a related theological tidbit.. REVELATION 17 "2": With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication Think on this.. A drunk is someone who is socially irresponsible and a nuisance or detriment to society. Those who promote and or perpetuate SATAN's LIE that humans can not overcome sin ..or keep GOD'S LAW...and those who believe it are THEOLOGICAL DRUNKS and are spiritual immature, irresponsible cowardly losers who need to get a life and get the truth. They are DRUNK on the wine of SATANIC doctrine. Happy New Year!!...may it start out hangover free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I read an article in yesterdays rag that stated 1 in 3 people attending an office party, drink enough to mouth off at the boss, pass out in front of co-workers and barf into wastebaskets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Thanks for the input... Aw what fun...and it is called a party??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Quote: Those who promote and or perpetuate SATAN's LIE that humans can not overcome sin ..or keep GOD'S LAW...and those who believe it are THEOLOGICAL DRUNKS and are spiritual immature, irresponsible cowardly losers who need to get a life and get the truth. They are DRUNK on the wine of SATANIC doctrine. I really don't think this is the key or central issue. I know a lot of people believe it is, but frankly I just don't see it. The greatest need I see in the world today is the need for love and compassion, for we live in a time when that which is intended to arouse compassion gives rise to contempt instead, and that which ought to excite pity rather incites hostility and malice. Ancillary to sensory indiscretions run the close channels of exertion into forced and narrow, cramped confines the rigid parameters of what is intrinsically inattainable: that is, a meta-level of management over the whole which no single part may ever obtain. Our Master (blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!) did not illustrate the core issue at the end of time upon the fashion of yours, but instead warned that because iniquity should abound, the love of many would wax cold. But he that endured unto the end (presumably, in this context, retained the capacity for love or kept the fire of love and compassion alive inside) would be saved. I do not know about you, but I feel most "lost" (or most in danger of being lost) when I look into my heart candidly and confront the areas where love is lacking or missing. I think the whole focus on "whether or not God's law can be kept" is a ruse to detract -- and distract -- from the real issue. And I also think that attempting to co-opt another's thinking on the matter by pre-emptively labeling any who disagree with your position -- before you have so much as even heard them out as to why -- as "spiritual immature, irresponsible cowardly losers who need to get a life and get the truth" is extremely childish of you, not to mention ineffectual. It makes you sound like a wound up fanatic instead of a rational man of God, and does not do anything to make me want to give serious consideration to what you have posited at all. Matter of fact, it diminishes any inclination I might have had to do so. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Well, Like you said...you don't see it... I do. And my adjectives are carefully selected and from a lot of experience. Love is the fulfilling of the law...and what is taught is a cheap shallow sentiment..not love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Let me post this again..since it has been awhile.. The law is an indicator of how authentic, genuine, and/ or mature one's love, trust and relationship is with God and their fellow human beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Let me take it into a business mode. Business has these mission statements..about their product and their attitude toward customers. The customer is king and they have the highest quality product. Some are really into matching the saying with quality control because they are sincerely genuine and concerned for the customer....so they insure with meticulous inspection and checking their product and processes for a top notch product and have superb customer service. The have metrics, standards and surveys, reviews. Then there are the businesses that are all hype and talk. They work on a reactive chaotic basis and flounder around. They handle case by case and work with the squeekiest wheels to maintain some semblence of operation. They are in the business only for greed and max profit and the customer is just an annoyance to get rid of as soon as possible. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Quote: Well, Like you said...you don't see it... I do. Actually no. I believe you have that reversed, unless you are referring specifically to your schtick above rather than the way things really are. Quote: And my adjectives are carefully selected and from a lot of experience. Perhaps, but they only serve yourself, and even their efficacy there is highly questionable. After all, they don't do a thing to either make or validate your point, or encourage others to want to hear you out on it, which I would think would constitute key purposes to even having a point to share at all ... right? Quote: Love is the fulfilling of the law...and what is taught is a cheap shallow sentiment..not love. This is another major problem: real love is denigrated as "cheap shallow sentiment" because it takes feelings and personal needs into account, and the verse, "love is the fulfilling of the law" is then twisted around to make it seem to support characterizing performance standards and rule-keeping as constituting "real love" when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Measuring another human being by their performance and/or ability to adhere to some unilateral set of rules (usually applied with a hefty overdose of double-standard hypocrisy to boot) does not constitute loving them, nor does it communicate love to them. This is a serious problem and is at the core of misunderstanding these precise issues I am addressing. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restin Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 And to top it all, new Year's Eve and New Years Day will be on the sabbath this year. As God, and the Universe, look down on earth, will they find people keeping the Sabbath anyway? Does anyone besides me feel that means something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Quote: Let me take it into a business mode. ... Does that help? Somewhat -- but unfortunately at the same time, it also "helps" to further illustrate the crux of the matter here and beg the issue I raised itself! First, I get what you're saying, OK, the contrast you are drawing. That's not at issue here. What is at issue is the very fact of even using a "business model" to attempt to discuss Love. You can't package Love into some unilateral set of codified policies, processes and programs -- and that's precisely my point! By the same token, no one needs to refer to such things to know the difference between whether they are being loved or not! And while yes it is good to have some general guidelines that have been shown to exhibit consistency in the proper care and treatment of others so as to demonstrate love, those guidelines cannot supply either the motivation or the ability to fulfill those things -- but possession of love in the heart for the love-object can, and does, and does so naturally. Attempting to reduce Love to a set of codified generalized unilateral unyielding guidelines that presumably cannot adapt to circumstances or diversities or differences in application, and then measure a person's heart by their performance or adherence to these narrowly defined parameters, is ludicrous. Is that how a husband ought to approach his wife, or a wife her husband, or a fiance with a fiancee or boyfriend with girlfriend? I think NOT! And isn't the primary relationship of love -- the male-female pair-bond -- supposed to mirror the relationship of Christ with the church? I find then that the real focus, the real issue, is not "whether God's law can be kept". It is "whether God will have a people transformed into People Who Love." Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 God's metrics and quality control operation: Matt 5 "3": Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "4": Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. "5": Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. "6": Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. "7": Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. "8": Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. "9": Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. "10": Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "11": Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. ---------------------------------- 1 Cor "4": Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, "5": Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; "6": Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; "7": Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. "8": Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. ---------------------- Gal 5 "18": But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. "19": Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, "20": Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, "21": Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. "22": But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, "23": Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. "24": And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. ------------------------ 2 Pete 1 "4": Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. "5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; "6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; "7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. "8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. "9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. "10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: "11": For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Quote: And isn't the primary relationship of love -- the male-female pair-bond -- supposed to mirror the relationship of Christ with the church? I find then that the real focus, the real issue, is not "whether God's law can be kept". It is "whether God will have a people transformed into People Who Love." Sounds great...yet lacks definition. Look at what the church thinks of Jesus and his wife... Jesus is some person who seems never around, on some mission as High Priest, and janitorial work in some spaced out sanctuary. Does He come home from work and listen to the wife or eat her meal every night? And this"people who love"...?? That is so subjective and open ended.... Yeah that person at church really loves me..they smile once a week and that is it. Jesus loved...how??? With daily detail and words...specific acts and even rebukes...with some rules...like regarding the tithe...these ought ye to have done and not leave the other undone...with telling the healed person to go to the priest. to tell the people to obey the priests because they sit in Moses' seat and told them to not be like them. Why does Paul say for our love to grow..more and more in knowledge... because there is substance and maturity and education levels to love..it is not either just loving or not loving...there are degrees and decisions to the extent of love...like loving with $5 or $50 as we learn what is more appropriate through experience. There is wisdom involved in love.. Some have others interests at heart but their heart is foolish so they blow their bank account to rescue a deadbeat who takes the money and DRINKS it away. ETC ETC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Posted this on another place on the internet..where the crowd is a lot different than here. Serious Question: To those who it applies to... Can you get through tomorrow without a drink of booze? Would it really mess up your social life, family life, physiology? Would you suffer withdrawals? Would you be a target of ridicule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Quote: First, I get what you're saying, OK, the contrast you are drawing. That's not at issue here. Oh contraire.... that is exactly the issue.... It is the sweet sounding hypocritical, phoney, ambiguous/subjective/abstract religious and or social cliches that lead to depravity. >>>>>>>everyone did what was right in their own eyes... the word of the Lord was scarce in those days..there was no vision.... where there is no vision the people perish Teachers are to competently explain and apply in clear, detailed and relevant ways the word of God. NEH 8:8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE HERE TRYING TO LAY A GUILT TRIP ON ME BY SAYING THAT MY POSTS ARE DRIVING YOU TO DRINK... YOU SHOULDN'T BE DRIVING AFTER YOU DRINK ANYWAY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Quote: And to top it all, new Year's Eve and New Years Day will be on the sabbath this year. As God, and the Universe, look down on earth, will they find people keeping the Sabbath anyway? Does anyone besides me feel that means something? What does it mean to you, Sheila? By the way i noticed in your profile you mentioned that you focus on Jungian psychology alongside God's word. If we have not yet done so already I'd really like to talk to you about this privately, if that's OK? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted December 31, 2004 Moderators Share Posted December 31, 2004 No hangovers at church then? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Just tagging on here to wish you all a... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/coolhello.gif" alt="" /> (It's 12.25 am on Saturday January 1st here now.) No alcohol but we did generate our own fireworks (my husband fired up the Tesla coil <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />). Hope the year ahead is a safe and happy one for all. aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Tie me kangeroo down sport... Waltzing Mathilda.... Same to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted December 31, 2004 Moderators Share Posted December 31, 2004 And here was me thinking I might get the first greetings in for the year !!! I still offer them [:"red"] Happy new year to all [/] Obviously you were not in bed early Aldona. I was, knowing a night call was likely. I am just back from my first baby of the year, a little girl. The first for that hospital but it wont be for the town or state LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darlene Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Yes, hope you have a Happy New Year and I hope your church participates in the North American Day of Prayer on January 1, 2005. What better time to spend in prayer than the first day of a new year? With all that is happening in the Indian Ocean area, war in Iraq, nightclub fire in South America, et cetera, we know Jesus Coming is very soon. So may we each make 2005 a year to share Jesus with all we meet. Won't it be wonderful when we can talk to Jesus face to face?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Quote: And this"people who love"...?? That is so subjective and open ended.... Yeah that person at church really loves me..they smile once a week and that is it. Jesus loved...how??? With daily detail and words...specific acts... I totally hear you on this and I agree with what you are saying. Do you really think I am trying to suggest the arm's-length mask of politeness and civility is an adequate substitute for love?? No freaking WAY!!! However, I could have gotten more behind your details on "Jesus loved - how?" if you would have included all the other things He did that did NOT involve telling people off and putting them in their place, because He clearly only operated this way with ONE class of people -- those who presumed to lord it over everyone else (AND who held the POSITIONS sanctioning them to act that way) while with all others His modus operandi was patient instruction, personal validation, and relief of suffering and meeting of real and legitimate need (rather than shaming them out of their needs or dumping demands on their heads they were not qualified to carry out). More coming ... Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Quote: Quote: First, I get what you're saying, OK, the contrast you are drawing. That's not at issue here. Oh contraire.... that is exactly the issue.... It was not the issue I was getting at. The issue I was getting at had to do with the reductionism inherent in attempting to codify the experience of Love into a rigid behavioralist formula. It simply cannot be done. Even JESUS acknowledges this, that's why He says the REAL "rule" is simply to do unto others what we would want done for ourselves. By so doing He illustrates the impossibility of a "one size fits all" codification of what constitutes "living out Love". Quote: It is the sweet sounding hypocritical, phoney, ambiguous/subjective/abstract religious and or social cliches that lead to depravity. Again, I truly believe you are off-base here. What I have observed is this: that it is the wrongful denigration of REAL love by these disparaging, nullifying, invalidating, "poison-pen" terms -- and then attempting to substitute rigidly codified, "one-size-fits-all" behavioral codes in place of the experience of actual Love -- which leads to depravity. In the absence of real Love (denied because it has been denigrated by the above disparaging terms and "tainted well" tactics of which you provided some examples), people feel the pain of lacking worth and meaning, lacking validation and connection, and lacking anything to generate respect inside -- respect for God, respect for others, and/or even self-respect. In the wake of these absences is when depravity reigns, for the promise of some pleasure, some reprieve, some succor from such a hell, however swiftly passing, vapid, short-lived and/or ill-gotten, is too alluring to resist, particularly when the elements of nourishment inside which might have prompted such resistance (investment in loyalty to God, or service to others, or even the bare minimalist pragmatism of self-respect) have already been drained and depleted. Quote: >>>>>>>everyone did what was right in their own eyes... I can think of no more salient or appropriate manner of viewing this verse than to apply it to the dearth of light and hope which results from denigrating love and leaving hurting, lost, dying souls to be the prey of the wild beasts of tyrannical conscience untempered by the tender, pitying mercies of what has been so cruelly banished through the sort of calloused and unappreciative lies spun by those who suffer from the delusion that mercy and tenderness are intrinsically evil, or at least forerunners thereof. You are not a teacher of the Word if you exclude mercy -- and I do mean unmitigated, unqualified, unadulterated mercy of the type revealed by Jesus Christ. Do you even know what that IS? I'm seriously beginning to believe either no one gets it or I've got a vision and a fire in my heart that exceeds that of God Himself (if we are to take what others represent as the way God is as actually being how God is, that is ). Since the latter is functionally impossible, I am forced to consider the very real possibility of the former .... Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Listen, All of this back and forth is because of your challenge to a couple of my remarks regarding overcoming sin and the capability of keeping the law. Your reply injected the negativity of it as if there is no proper balanced loving perspective on it..as if there can be no Jesus spin to the remarks. Does love compassion forgiveness and mercy have to be segregated to the remarks >>overcoming sin and keeping the law? Is there so much legalistic, oppressive, bigoted contamination/spin to those remarks that they have to be erased from the vocabulary of genuine Christians? I promote the terms because of the ambiguity and lack of definition of the terms of love , relationship and all of the contemporary religious cliches. This is why I posted the scripture texts previously above ..the authors gave details to show the substance, sense , definiton... WHY did they do that??? To be clear in communication and truth. Why did Jesus have to die if the requirements were less than perfect obedience to the law or fully trusting God? In the lesson...why was the plan of salvation revealed after one sin? Why not after a few episodes when things got out of hand? The issue is goal ambiguity.. The goal is character transformation to the likeness of Christ......not just a slight behavior modification to make a person slightly more civil and sociable. There are many sociable people who would feel it torture to be around God and a zillion Holy angels and genuine Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Nico, I appreciate the replies..because it brings out many nuances of the controversy and other readers can see that it is not an elementary issue. Also the emotion /feelings are involved too. JER 17:9 and Rom 8:7 are good clues as to what is involved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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