EGW and inspiration

[John317]

This deserves my 'Oh Brother' award.

You can do better than that. Can you, for example, explain why you believe as you do about that post?

Anyone can say, "Oh Brother." That is nothing. Explain your view in a reasoned way, supporting yourself by the evidence.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

They are not the same because one is canon and the other is not. But they were both equally inspired. There is no different degrees of inspiration between the true prophets. You can't justifiably say that Moses was more inspired than Joel or that Paul was more inspired than Peter. If that is true of canonical prophets, there is no reason to believe it does not apply equally to true prophets whose writings didn't make it into the canon. If the Holy Spirit guided Ellen White and inspired her in writing out her visions-- and I believe He did-- then she was inspired. You can't be partly inspired-- a prophet of God either is inspired or is not. Ellen White said she was.

Okay, so let's keep going. The FB says that she is 'an 'authoritative source of truth', which no matter which way you spin it is a dichotomous statement with the FB that states the Bible is to be that.

I will respond fully to your entire post here, but I would like to see you respond directly to the above argument. Show where I am either wrong due to faulty logic or wrong because the evidence contradicts me.

Your jumping to an argument against the FB is not a response to what I've argued.

[John317]

Quote:

Her teaching this is an evidence that she was a genuine prophet of God. Paul did the same thing. He was tested by the Old Testament Scriptures, but of course that did not mean or imply that Paul was less inspired than the Old Testament writers. The same applies to a modern prophet. Either they are inspired or not-- there are no partly inspired prophets.

Quote:

Hmmmm, Paul and EGW are inspired, both are prophets of God. The assumption can then be made that they are equal.

That would be a mistaken assumption, although some do make it.

The SDA church believes that they were both inspired of God but it does not believe that Ellen White is on a par with Scripture. Why not? Is it because Ellen White was less inspired?

[John317]

Quote:

Her teaching this is an evidence that she was a genuine prophet of God. Paul did the same thing. He was tested by the Old Testament Scriptures, but of course that did not mean or imply that Paul was less inspired than the Old Testament writers. The same applies to a modern prophet. Either they are inspired or not-- there are no partly inspired prophets.

Quote:

Either she is equal to the Bible or she isn't. All of the continuing rhetoric about the matter is obfuscation by definition.

Ellen White is not equal in authority to the Bible. Ellen White, as all noncanonical prophets, must pass the Bible tests. 1 Thess. 5: 19-21.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

They are not the same because one is canon and the other is not. But they were both equally inspired. There is no different degrees of inspiration between the true prophets. You can't justifiably say that Moses was more inspired than Joel or that Paul was more inspired than Peter. If that is true of canonical prophets, there is no reason to believe it does not apply equally to true prophets whose writings didn't make it into the canon. If the Holy Spirit guided Ellen White and inspired her in writing out her visions-- and I believe He did-- then she was inspired. You can't be partly inspired-- a prophet of God either is inspired or is not. Ellen White said she was.

Either her writings are on par with the scriptures (due to same HS inspiration) and are an 'authority' just like they are, or they are NOT on the same level.

The SDA church believes that as a prophet, Ellen White was equally inspired as were the prophets in the Bible. But Ellen White's authority is inferior to the Bible and therefore it can be stated AGAIN that Ellen White's books are NOT on the same level with Scripture.

This is part of the FB and has been stated numerous times on this thread.

[guibox]

The SDA church believes that as a prophet, Ellen White was equally inspired as were the prophets in the Bible. But Ellen White's authority is inferior to the Bible and therefore it can be stated AGAIN that Ellen White's books are NOT on the same level with Scripture.

This is part of the FB and has been stated numerous times on this thread.

Okay...maybe dumb this down like you're talking to a three year old because I just don't get it.

According to your reasoning, EGW's inspiration was the same as the Bible writers, yet they were all fallible.

That means that her words and writings are from God and like the bible writers, her words cannot really be challenged (if the inspiration is the same and the messages are from God)...in other words, they are as infallible as the scripture for it's the same inspiration.

So as the Bible (which is a collection of inspired writings from inspired individuals) is also an authority according to the FBs, so EGW (a collection of inspired writings from an inspired individual) is an 'authoritative source of truth' according to the FB. Many in our church directly or indirectly believe that what EGW was shown or interpreted dogmatically cannot be changed and will not contradict the Bible or other prophets before her.

And yet, you say that her writings are a lower authority and not on the same level as the scripture.

??

What, pray tell, according to you makes them so different and EGW lower in authority, when you've been trying so hard to prove that what makes up the infallible Bible canon(i.e writers inspired by the same Holy Spirit) is the same as EGW?

John, you're contradicting yourself.

This is such a confusing mess.

BTW, take a look at the 1931 FB on the SOP. You will notice that the 'authoritative source of truth' (which contradicts the other FB on the Bible's authority IMO)is not present.

It is not there and is worded much better.

I believe that the 1980 FB is WRONG and was written that way due to the Ford/Rea backlash that occurred. This was a pendulum swing to counteract their effects to cement in the minds of the church the belief of EGW.

[Liz]

Sorry, I must admit I am a little lost in this conversation but what does "FB" stand for?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sorry, I must admit I am a little lost in this conversation but what does "FB" stand for?

I was just going to ask the same question...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Liz

Sorry, I must admit I am a little lost in this conversation but what does "FB" stand for?

I was just going to ask the same question...

Fundamental Beliefs-- the official statement of Seventh-day Adventists beliefs.

See: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

ohh...Thanks!

[Liz]

Ahhh, the lightbulb has come on!!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The SDA church believes that as a prophet, Ellen White was equally inspired as were the prophets in the Bible. But Ellen White's authority is inferior to the Bible and therefore it can be stated AGAIN that Ellen White's books are NOT on the same level with Scripture.

This is part of the FB and has been stated numerous times on this thread.

Okay...maybe dumb this down like you're talking to a three year old because I just don't get it.

According to your reasoning, EGW's inspiration was the same as the Bible writers, yet they were all fallible.

That means that her words and writings are from God and like the bible writers, her words cannot really be challenged (if the inspiration is the same and the messages are from God)...in other words, they are as infallible as the scripture for it's the same inspiration.

God allows the Bible writers to be challenged all the time. Anyone is free to challenge anything. But do those who have faith in God and in the Bible as God's Word continue to challenge the fact that it is the word of God?

I once challenged the idea that the Bible was God's word. I once hated and rejected Ellen White. But as I studied both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, I got to the point where I became convinced that they are of God.

Everyone has to make up his own mind about these matters.

So of course there will be times in everyone's life when they will challenge the Bible and challenge the gift of prophecy as manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. But it is hoped that eventually people will cease to challenge them. (Looking sincerely for answers to questions about the Bible and about Ellen White's writings is different from "challenging" them. Usually the more intelligent a person is, the more questions they ask. So there is nothing wrong with questions. That is how people learn, at least if they are listening to the answers and are sincere in the questions. We must assume all the questions are the result of a genuine desire to find answers.)

It might help if you study the following chapter which expresses my viewpoint on Ellen White and, I believe, will answer all of the questions you asked on this post--

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-17.htm

I'll continue to answer all of your questions and respond to your posts, but for the rest of the day, I will need to attend to some other things.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

This deserves my 'Oh Brother' award.

You can do better than that. Can you, for example, explain why you believe as you do about that post?

Anyone can say, "Oh Brother." That is nothing. Explain your view in a reasoned way, supporting yourself by the evidence.

The volume of errors ... just make it too exhausting to attempt. And like the others have said .... we have been on this road before. When one continues to reject truth ... you just have to let them go at some point.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Quote:

Her teaching this is an evidence that she was a genuine prophet of God. Paul did the same thing. He was tested by the Old Testament Scriptures, but of course that did not mean or imply that Paul was less inspired than the Old Testament writers. The same applies to a modern prophet. Either they are inspired or not-- there are no partly inspired prophets.

Quote:

Hmmmm, Paul and EGW are inspired, both are prophets of God. The assumption can then be made that they are equal.

That would be a mistaken assumption, although some do make it.

The SDA church believes that they were both inspired of God but it does not believe that Ellen White is on a par with Scripture. Why not? Is it because Ellen White was less inspired?

The gifts of the spirit are all equal gifts. The gift of prophecy is just one of many. Is a prophet inspired? Is a pastor inspired? Is a teacher inspired? Are apostles inspired? Yes. They are all inspired. I do not see any level of inspiration made. So, I have to believe they are equally inspired.

The test?

Scripture.

It is the test for each of them. That is how we know.

Is the pastor or teacher an 'authority of truth' ... YES.

Just test them with scripture.

[Woody]

Excellent Post CoA.

What that extreme side does is to knock down all the other gifts and groups of people such as women and pastors and teachers etc etc. Once they knock down all these groups ... they can elevate EGW to the point of worship. It is sad. Ellen White would not have approved of this abuse. What a shame that she has been so taken advantage of.

[aldona]

Quote:

The thing is EGW is not a test of fellowship with the SDA church,

Just try to request baptism while having doubts about the prophetic role of EGW, and see how far you get.

One of our Christian friends of another denomination used to say that "Adventists are baptised into EGW, not into Christ."

aldona

[bygjymbo]

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[Woody]

It is interesting that when the gifts of the Spirit are listed ... that prophecy is listed towards the end next to speaking in tongues. This would seem to indicate to me that no gift is any better than another.

[John317]

It is interesting that when the gifts of the Spirit are listed ... that prophecy is listed towards the end next to speaking in tongues. This would seem to indicate to me that no gift is any better than another.

Three times, in the lists of the gifts of the Spirit, in 1 Cor. 12:28, 29 and Eph. 4: 11, Saint Paul listed the gift of prophecy as second to that of the apostles. So the gift of prophesy in the lists of the gifts is second.

Also, in Cor. 14: 1, the apostle clearly sees the gift of prophecy as something that we all should desire "above all."

1 Cor. 14: 5 says that prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues. Compare verses 22-25.

There are at least five things we should notice about the gifts:

1) The gifts all have the same source: God.

2) It is God who decides which abilities we receive.

3) The purpose of the gifts is to contribute to the good of the entire church.

4) All the gifts are important as far as God is concerned. None are insignificant. The church needs ALL its gifts just as the body needs all of its members.

5) Some gifts ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHERS. (This is different from being "better.")

Why are some more important than others? Because they are more fundamental to the mission of the church, and because their influence is more extensive than the other gifts.

Again, notice the order of Paul's lists in 1 Cor. 12: 28 and Eph. 4: 11. Notice that he places Apostles and prophets at the head of the list, and "tongues" are last.

Why?

[John317]

Quote:

The thing is EGW is not a test of fellowship with the SDA church,

Just try to request baptism while having doubts about the prophetic role of EGW, and see how far you get.

One of our Christian friends of another denomination used to say that "Adventists are baptised into EGW, not into Christ."

Why do you believe this is the case? Do you think there is any justification for it?

I think you'll find there's no uniform practice throughout the SDA church.

It really depends, too, on the baptismal candidate's knowledge and expressed views regarding Ellen White.

For instance, if someone has only been introduced to Ellen White and has the attitude of being willing to study more before making up their mind about whether she is a prophet of God-- I don't believe there would be any objection made to their being baptized.

But let's say a person is teaching others that Ellen White is a false prophet or that she cannot be depended on, then I would not be surprised if that person has a problem being accepted into membership in the church.

The church expects people to grow in their awareness, understanding, and appreciation of the gift of prophecy. That is the way it is supposed to be. Very few people know very much about her when they first join the church.

[Woody]

"It is the absence of the Spirit that makes the gospel ministry so powerless. Learning, talent, eloquence, every natural or acquired endowment, may be possessed; but, without the presence of the Spirit of God, no heart will be touched, no sinner won to Christ. On the other hand, if they are connected with Christ, if the gifts of the Spirit are theirs, the poorest and most ignorant of His disciples will have a power that will tell upon hearts. God makes them channels for the outflowing of the highest influence in the universe." 8T 21

"The talents that Christ entrusts to His church represent especially the gifts and blessings imparted by the Holy Spirit. "To one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues; but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will." Not all the gifts are imparted to each believer, but to every servant of the Master some gift of the Spirit is promised, according to his need for the Lord's work. ST, March 15, 1910 par. 3

In all the Lord's arrangements, there is nothing more beautiful than His plan of giving to men and women a diversity of gifts. The church is His garden, adorned with a variety of trees, plants, and flowers. He does not expect the hyssop to assume the proportions of the cedar, nor the olive to reach the height of the stately palm. Many have received but a limited religious and intellectual training, but God has a work for this class to do, if they will labor in humility, trusting in Him. ST, March 15, 1910 par. 4

God has different ways of working, and He has different workmen to whom He entrusts varied gifts. One worker may be a ready speaker; another a ready writer; another may have the gift of sincere, earnest, fervent prayer; another the gift of singing; another may have special skill in explaining the Word of God with clearness. And each gift is to become a power for good, because God works with the laborer. To one God gives the word of wisdom, to another knowledge; but all are to work under the same Head. The diversity of gifts leads to a diversity of operations; but "it is the same God which worketh all in all." ST, March 15, 1910 par. 5

1 Cor.12:4-12 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. "

Prophecy is actually one of the last gifts near speaking in tongues (Not that order matters).But, I just can't imagine that we are to place value in one more than another. There certainly is no justification for it in scripture.

[Robert]

Ellen White interpreted, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon", to mean, "as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained."

No comment?

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Her teaching this is an evidence that she was a genuine prophet of God. Paul did the same thing. He was tested by the Old Testament Scriptures, but of course that did not mean or imply that Paul was less inspired than the Old Testament writers. The same applies to a modern prophet. Either they are inspired or not-- there are no partly inspired prophets.

The gifts of the spirit are all equal gifts. The gift of prophecy is just one of many.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- Is a prophet inspired?

Yes, the Bible clearly says the prophet is inspired to give messages from God. See 2 Peter 1: 21.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- Is a pastor inspired? Is a teacher inspired?

Bible or SOP evidence?

These are all certainly gifts and important ones, but they are not "inspired" in the NT sense of that word. If you believe they are, show the evidence.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- Are apostles inspired? Yes.

Certainly the apostles were inspired, but apostles were essentially the same as the Old Testament prophets.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- They are all inspired.

Again, please show the Bible evidence that all the gifts of the Spirit involve "inspiration" in the NT sense of that word.

Are you saying that all members of God's church may be equally "inspired" regardless of their gift?

If this is what you are saying, please show the Bible or SOP evidence.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- I do not see any level of inspiration made. So, I have to believe they are equally inspired.

All who are inspired in the NT sense are equally inspired. I agree. But the only ones who the NT says are "inspired" are the prophets and apostles. They are inspired by the Holy Spirit to give messages from God for the church.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- The test?

Scripture.

It is the test for each of them. That is how we know.

I agree that Scripture is the only way to know if someone is truly inspired. They must be in agreement with the Bible. See Isaiah 8: 20 and 1 Cor. 14: 37. God does not inspire one prophet to say one thing and another prophet to contradict him.

Quote:

REDWOOD-- Is the pastor or teacher an 'authority of truth' ... YES.

Just test them with scripture.

You are right that all the gifts must be tested by the Scripture, to see whether they are genuine or not, and to see whether they teach the truth.

The difference between the true prophet of God and the teacher or pastor is that whereas the prophet gets his message directly from God, the pastor and teacher gets the truth directly from Scripture. The Holy Spirit may guide the pastor or teacher into the truth of the word of God. God may even speak to his heart and mind through the Scripture and bring personal conviction to him through prayer. Ellen White herself has said that God may speak to us while in prayer, and there are Christians who say that they know this to be true because they have experienced hearing God's voice during prayer. I know of others who have said that angels appeared them and talked to them about the soon coming of Christ. I believe at least some of these are true or at least could be true.

[fccool]

But let's say a person is teaching others that Ellen White is a false prophet or that she cannot be depended on, then I would not be surprised if that person has a problem being accepted into membership in the church.

The church expects people to grow in their awareness, understanding, and appreciation of the gift of prophecy. That is the way it is supposed to be. Very few people know very much about her when they first join the church.

Of course, the problem is that Baptism is not into the Adventist church, but into an unseen church. There's no indication from the Bible to support the above. Neither there's indication that Baptisms(by submersion) from other churches is somehow of a lesser meaning. Bible clearly teaches that there's only one Baptism. There's no indication in the Bible for a practice of re-Baptism (outside of foot washing). I certainly don't push the Idea that Adventists somehow have the monopoly over Baptisms. We've had many students going to mission trips to China, and they would Baptize people in their own bathtubs, after Chinese accepted Christ and understood the message of the Gospel.

I think it's safe to say that if one does not believe that E.G.White is a true prophet of God, then it's safe to say they that person believes that she is a false prophet. Yet, this is not a ground for Baptism denial Biblically. Denying one a Baptism over this issue is essentially engaging in spiritual blackmailing.

Baptism does not require any extensive knowledge other than basic Gospel knowledge. In Acts 8, you have a pretty good example of what kind of knowledge is necessary... not something you can't explain to a person in a span of several hours.

When I was Baptized, I've made it clear that I don't believe E.G.White to be prophet. I did change my mind since I've read a several of her books, but it just goes to show that in our church you don't have to except her as a prophet, although some ultra-conservative members in the congregation made a big fuss about it.