Woody Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Now Now. One doesn't have to get nasty. My pastor has nothing to do with this ... so I would appreciate it if you don't bring her into the picture. Let's keep the focus on the forum here. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Apostasy is the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. No - apostasy is the renunciation of Christ. EGW's errors can lead to the rejection of Christ. Been there, almost did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messenger Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Apostasy is the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. If you need further help, ask your pastor next time you see her. She's got a Masters degree in theology from a great university. Give her the Ellen White quote and ask her what it means. It's pretty plain English but if you don't understand it, I'm sure she will be able to explain it to you. Hey Brother John317, I am just back online now. And I saw this reply of yours and thought you were just making a reasonable suggestion. I do not see that you were getting nasty or off the issue as Redwood has said. What did you do that is so wrong by suggesting that he ask his pastor. Quote "Sanctify them by the truth" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2009 So, would you suggest that each time we sin ... that we be rebaptized with this kind of theory? I'd suggest the same thing that's suggested in the SDA church manual: Quote: On the basis of acceptance of significant new truths, Ellen G. White supports rebaptism as the Spirit leads the new believer to request it. This follows the developmental pattern of Acts 19. Individuals who have previously experienced believer baptism should evaluate their new religious experience and determine whether rebaptism may be desirable. There is to be no urging. “This [rebaptism] is a subject which each individual must conscientiously take his position upon in the fear of God. This subject should be carefully presented in the spirit of tenderness and love. Then the duty of urging belongs to no one but God; give God a chance to work with His Holy Spirit upon the minds, so that the individual will be perfectly convinced and satisfied in regard to this advanced step.”—Evangelism, p. 373. Apostasy and Rebaptism—Although apostasy clearly existed in the apostolic church (e.g., Heb. 6:4-6), Scripture does not address the question of rebaptism. Ellen G. White supports rebaptism when members have fallen away in apostasy and have lived in such a manner that the faith and principles of the church have been publicly violated. Then they should, in case of reconversion and application for church membership, enter the church as in the beginning, by baptism. (See pp. 199, 207.) “The Lord calls for a decided reformation. And when a soul is truly reconverted, let him be rebaptized. Let him renew his covenant with God, and God will renew His covenant with him.”—Evangelism, p. 375. Clearly what is referred to here is not a recurring spiritual revival in a believer’s experience, but a radical change in life. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 20, 2009 Members Share Posted January 20, 2009 I think Redwood that there is any proof one way or the other. We had a discussion of this in SS once and we have a couple of Religion teachers that are in our class and they basically have the same to say as John317. I personally believe that's its a matter between the individual and God. I knew a few people that were rebaptized. And they said that they just felt that they needed to do that. And there are those that have left and felt that they didn't need to. Again I think that its up to the individual and how they feel is right for them. And I would also imagine that they have discussed this with there pastor. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guibox Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Now Now. One doesn't have to get nasty. My pastor has nothing to do with this ... so I would appreciate it if you don't bring her into the picture. Let's keep the focus on the forum here. Her?? HER???? You blasted heathen!! No wonder you're talking such apostasy with a woman 'pastor'!! Surely there must be an EGW quote to counteract this!! Messenger? John? Get out the little red books and put this man in his place, pleeeeaaaase!!! Heretics everywhere!! Oh BTW, as futile as it may seem Quote www.corbel.theacaistory.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Messenger? John? Get out the little red books and put this man in his place, pleeeeaaaase!!! Heretics everywhere!! Oh BTW, as futile as it may seem I'm begining to like this guy more and more..... Your TIC comments are great... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Shoot, guys..... I leave for a couple of days, and you guys can't shut up long enough for me to keep up...135 POSTS!!!!! And you have moved on to rebaptism....! Ok, MY OPINION....Why does one get rebaptised? John, you didn't underline your quote very well....It states that when a Christian has done some things "PUBLICALLY", that were against Christian principles and against Christ Himself,... well, then you need to get rebaptisted for apostasy....but otherwise...what's the need for? You guys talk like baptism does something to you....Like you become some sort of new creature or something? What do you think conversion is???? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 20, 2009 Members Share Posted January 20, 2009 I don't think that you will find one! I think and hope that's correct. hahahaha And I don't think that john or messenger have any problem with women pastors. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think Redwood that there is any proof one way or the other. We had a discussion of this in SS once and we have a couple of Religion teachers that are in our class and they basically have the same to say as John317. I personally believe that's its a matter between the individual and God. I knew a few people that were rebaptized. And they said that they just felt that they needed to do that. And there are those that have left and felt that they didn't need to. Again I think that its up to the individual and how they feel is right for them. And I would also imagine that they have discussed this with there pastor. pk I agree with you pk. I just think the symbolism and message of re-baptism STINKS. To me it says the sacrifice of Jesus was not big enough to cover your sins. To me it is a one time event and symbol ... even no matter how prepared you might have been or might not have been. But to each his or her own. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Quote: "Those who place the subject of rebaptism in the front, making it of as much importance as the Sabbath question, are not leaving the right impression upon the minds and correctly representing the subject." Evangelism (1946), page 372, 373 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bygjymbo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 ...To me it says the sacrifice of Jesus was not big enough to cover your sins. To me it is a one time even no matter how prepared you might have been or might not have been. So you think that baptism "ritual" has some sort of supernatural power to change your heart? Or that I'm now "forced" to abide in Jesus sacrifice, even though I choose not to?? Sounds like "once saved, always saved". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ok, so how many times were you 3 years old? Or 6? Same with baptism...you only need to do it once....Maybe you didn't act your age...doesn't mean that you were not that age, just that you didn't act it.... And to "rebaptise" one's self, seems more to me like it was a ritual and not making much importance of it.... IOWs, if it didn't work the first time, well, maybe I did it wrong, and it will this time.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood ...To me it says the sacrifice of Jesus was not big enough to cover your sins. To me it is a one time even no matter how prepared you might have been or might not have been. So you think that baptism "ritual" has some sort of supernatural power to change your heart? Or that I'm now "forced" to abide in Jesus sacrifice, even though I choose not to?? Sounds like "once saved, always saved". Baptism is a symbol as I indicated. You will fail in your works yes. But Jesus doesn't fail. His sacrifice covers all. And when you fail ... Jesus has given us the 'mini' baptism of foot washing to cover those error symbolically. Do you participate in footwashing? It is a great experience that many unfortunately miss out on. And if you think that baptism 'saves' you ... then you are mistaken. So the once saved always saved ... has nothing to do with it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bygjymbo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Baptism isn't "Jesus dying a second time". It's symbolizes MY death and resurrection with Jesus. I have to die to self every day. I'm not infallible. There is nothing wrong with re-committing myself after many years of turning my back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 And now we have to be baptized every day? Sounds like a yo-yo religion to me. No assurance. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bygjymbo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 So basically what you're saying, is that it's imposssilbe for me to be lost, because at one point in time, I was converted and baptised. THAT'S once saved, always saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Baptism does not guarantee that you will be saved. So, I don't see your point. It is not once saved always saved because baptism does not mean you are going to be saved. IF I had your kind of belief ... I guess I would want to be baptized every day. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bygjymbo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You're right, baptism and conversion don't go hand in hand. BUT baptism AFTER conversion does. So after you're converted, you should be baptised, even if you were baptised before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Quote: Baptism isn't "Jesus dying a second time". It's symbolizes MY death and resurrection with Jesus. Yupper...something that you did once.... Quote: I have to die to self every day. I'm not infallible. I thought that was what communion was for...dying to self and assimilating Jesus' Word into your life... Quote: There is nothing wrong with re-committing myself after many years of turning my back. No, there is not....but as I said, unless you've done some public things that conflicted with your understanding of Christ, such as denying him publically, then yeah, go get rebapbtised. ...But if you haven't, why do you need to crucify Jesus afresh? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I would have to be baptized every day then. But no. Christ want us to walk in faith knowing that our past sins have been buried in the depths of the sea and we can walk forward knowing that we have the assurance of salvation. He doesn't want us looking back but instead he wants us to walk forward in newness of life. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Bottom line is that there is no Biblical example of anyone being rebaptized ... who had been baptized properly. This idea of rebaptism is an extraBiblical invention. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bygjymbo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 No, there is not....but as I said, unless you've done some public things that conflicted with your understanding of Christ, such as denying him publically, then yeah, go get rebapbtised. That's the crux of the matter. There certainly are times when it's proper. The Bible says so. We're just disagreeing on the specifics of those times and playing word games. I've had enough.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 The only example of re-baptism is when one was not baptized in the proper mode ... as in ... IN the NAME of the Holy Ghost. All SDA baptism now include the phrase ... "In the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost". Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 21, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2009 The only example of re-baptism is when one was not baptized in the proper mode ... as in ... IN the NAME of the Holy Ghost. All SDA baptism now include the phrase ... "In the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost". The principle we learn from Acts 19 is as the SDA church manual says: Quote: On the basis of acceptance of significant new truths, Ellen G. White supports rebaptism as the Spirit leads the new believer to request it. This follows the developmental pattern of Acts 19. Individuals who have previously experienced believer baptism should evaluate their new religious experience and determine whether rebaptism may be desirable. There is to be no urging. “This [rebaptism] is a subject which each individual must conscientiously take his position upon in the fear of God. This subject should be carefully presented in the spirit of tenderness and love. Then the duty of urging belongs to no one but God; give God a chance to work with His Holy Spirit upon the minds, so that the individual will be perfectly convinced and satisfied in regard to this advanced step.”—Evangelism, p. 373. Apostasy and Rebaptism—Although apostasy clearly existed in the apostolic church (e.g., Heb. 6:4-6), Scripture does not address the question of rebaptism. Ellen G. White supports rebaptism when members have fallen away in apostasy and have lived in such a manner that the faith and principles of the church have been publicly violated. Then they should, in case of reconversion and application for church membership, enter the church as in the beginning, by baptism. (See pp. 199, 207.) “The Lord calls for a decided reformation. And when a soul is truly reconverted, let him be rebaptized. Let him renew his covenant with God, and God will renew His covenant with him.”—Evangelism, p. 375. Clearly what is referred to here is not a recurring spiritual revival in a believer’s experience, but a radical change in life. The foot washing is for those who have already been cleansed in a baptism of both the Spirit and the water. However, if an individual's first baptism was only a water baptism, the foot-washing won't be adequate because that person never truly died to sin. When a person realizes that this is the case, and he experiences true conversion, then the Holy Spirit will lead him to rebaptism. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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