EGW and inspiration

[Woody]

Redwood each of us grows as we walk with God. I would also imagine EGW did also.

pk

Yes indeeed. I agree with you pk. And it is evident in her writings over the years.

[guibox]

Yes, she is fallible. She was a sinner in need of Christ as much as any other human being.

So she is simply fallible in the 'personal' sense, in that she is a sinner like us. However this doesn't apply to her prophetic role or her writings? That must be the stance because you haven't shown where she is fallible yet.

Come on, John. Let's get down to the brass tacks of the matter..

Do you believe that EGW could be wrong in her some of her writings? Do you believe that she was shown and interpreted correctly all the truth of every doctrine she wrote about for all time for all people?

Yes or no?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And you could be wrong too! After all she isn't infallible' date=' right?[/quote']

Of course I could be wrong too. I'm not saying anything to you that I don't apply to myself and to anyone else. Yes, she is fallible. She was a sinner in need of Christ as much as any other human being.

TU

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, she is fallible. She was a sinner in need of Christ as much as any other human being.

So she is simply fallible in the 'personal' sense, in that she is a sinner like us. However this doesn't apply to her prophetic role or her writings? That must be the stance because you haven't shown where she is fallible yet.

Come on, John. Let's get down to the brass tacks of the matter..

Do you believe that EGW could be wrong in her some of her writings? Do you believe that she was shown and interpreted correctly all the truth of every doctrine she wrote about for all time for all people?

Yes or no?

Good Point Guibox. We will wait.

I believe that I heard the total number of words that Ellen White has published is around 50 million. Perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong. But, do we believe that each and every one of those 50 million words are without error? What other 'prophet' had that number of words? Can't we expect that some of her words were 'infantile'? In other words that they were not yet fully mature. That perhaps she had to grow in her experience? Were all these 50 million words fully inspired?

I just can't believe that. I believe she was a prophet. But a prophet with a specific purpose. A specific message. But not a Universal message on all topics. So, I use my good old common sense and glean from her what is good and timely and culturally appropriate. I pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me as I read her. I study and compare her to scripture.

But I believe she had a limited and specific calling. As she indicated ... she wrote to point us to scripture. And so if you keep this goal in focus as you read her ... you will be blessed.

[phkrause]

I would be the first that would say that she is fallible as anyone of us. Since all of us have been born into sin. I'm not sure how much of her writings are based on her visions and/or dreams! There's definitely room for error trying to write down all that was in her mind. But we have to believe that the HS must have helped her with all. Now could she have made mistakes in understanding what the Lord was trying to convey or did she decide to interpret certain things as what she thought it ment. Remember in the Bible were David asks Nathan the Prophet if he could build the temple and Nathan tells him yes go ahead. And later God tells Nathan that he doesn't want David to build it. So here is a time and place where the prophet has assumed that God wants David to build the temple but God shows or tells him this is not correct. I think that if EGW had written anything that was really out of context with what God wanted he would have had her fix the problem. Now as far as I know there are not any places, at least not in most of the books that I've read that that has happened.

pk

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, she is fallible. She was a sinner in need of Christ as much as any other human being.

So she is simply fallible in the 'personal' sense, in that she is a sinner like us. However this doesn't apply to her prophetic role or her writings? That must be the stance because you haven't shown where she is fallible yet.

Come on, John. Let's get down to the brass tacks of the matter..

Do you believe that EGW could be wrong in her some of her writings? Do you believe that she was shown and interpreted correctly all the truth of every doctrine she wrote about for all time for all people?

Yes or no?

Moses was also a sinner and fallible. So was David, Samuel, Jeremiah, Elijah, Enoch, Paul, John, Peter, James. True?

The only difference between Ellen White and those people is that she lived in our time, long after the canon was closed.

But the inspiration of all the true prophets of God is the same.

If she was a prophet-- and I believe she was-- then she was inspired of God. A prophet cannot be half inspired-- either they are inspired or not inspired.

Does a prophet have to be without sin in order for their writings to be dependable and true? If he or she must be, then we're in big trouble because it would mean the Bible is not dependable, for all the writers were fallible, sinful people.

Is the Bible absolutely without any error at all? If you think so, which ancient manuscript and which translation is completely without any error?

Which apostle and prophet had ALL knowledge? Can you name any?

This is, as you called it, "getting down to the brass tacks of the matter."

[guibox]

Moses was also a sinner and fallible. So was David, Samuel, Jeremiah, Elijah, Enoch, Paul, John, Peter, James. True?

The only difference between Ellen White and those people is that she lived in our time, long after the canon was closed.

But the inspiration of all the true prophets of God is the same.

If she was a prophet-- and I believe she was-- then she was inspired of God. A prophet cannot be half inspired-- either they are inspired or not inspired.

Does a prophet have to be without sin in order for their writings to be dependable and true? If he or she must be, then we're in big trouble because it would mean the Bible is not dependable, for all the writers were fallible, sinful people.

Is the Bible absolutely without any error at all? If you think so, which ancient manuscript and which translation is completely without any error?

Which apostle and prophet had ALL knowledge? Can you name any?

This is, as you called it, "getting down to the brass tacks of the matter."

I will take this convulted rambling and dancing around the issue as a big 'yes!!! I do believe that all her writings are without error theologically'

In other words, David was fallible. A murderer, adulterer and drinker. But the Psalms are inspired infallible word guided by the Holy Spirit...thus so is EGW.

Is that it in a nutshell, John? If so, it lets all of us know just where you come from and what to expect from you.

And yes, there is a big difference between David and Sister White...

David's writings are part of the infallible Canon for the full truth of our lives....EGW and her writings were not. And she'd be the first to tell you you that.

David was part of new canon. Formation of the original word of God for our lives. EGW was not adding new dogma or establishing a new religion with an original creed like the Scriptures.

EGW and the scriptures are NOT the same, and are not on the same level.

This is something that the conservative does not want to grasp. By accepting the opposite, however, that it IS on par with scripture because it is the same HS inspiration, you've created many, many problems that the conservative just wants to ignore.

You said that there is no such thing as 'half inspired'. Inspiration doesn't mean infallibility. Inspiration doesn't mean without human error.

If you guys truly believe that EGW can never be wrong, that all her writings and dogmatic interpretation can not be wrong and must not be deviated from then we are all wasting our breath here.

Redwood, Tom, Robert...do you agree with me here or not that this is a futile argument and a waste of time?

If these guys truly believe this than there is no room for any sort of compromise. It is either defend or believe all of her or reject all of her.

No wonder we have so many former-Adventists when this cultic mindset, this Ellenolatry forces you into a position like that!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: guibox

So she is simply fallible in the 'personal' sense, in that she is a sinner like us. However this doesn't apply to her prophetic role or her writings? That must be the stance because you haven't shown where she is fallible yet.

Come on, John. Let's get down to the brass tacks of the matter..

Do you believe that EGW could be wrong in her some of her writings? Do you believe that she was shown and interpreted correctly all the truth of every doctrine she wrote about for all time for all people?

Yes or no?[/quote']

Moses was also a sinner and fallible. So was David, Samuel, Jeremiah, Elijah, Enoch, Paul, John, Peter, James. True?

The only difference between Ellen White and those people is that she lived in our time, long after the canon was closed.

But the inspiration of all the true prophets of God is the same.

If she was a prophet-- and I believe she was-- then she was inspired of God. A prophet cannot be half inspired-- either they are inspired or not inspired.

Four points:

1.) You are confusing sinfulness with fallibility. They are not the same thing. One can be mistaken without sinning. One can be sinless and have limitations.

2.) The inspiration of all true prophets is NOT the same. God spoke to his prophets in different ways at different times. Inspiration also requires an human receptacle and none of the Prophets of old were alike or equal. He spoke to some directly, some he sent an angel, some he gave dreams and visions. Some he gave miracle working authority. And some he just granted superior wisdom and discernment. Some he gave eloquence, others a thick tongue. Some were educated and were talented writers, others were simple farmers, with no education or writing ability. God gave some prophets much (Isaiah, Moses) others he gave very little (Jonah, Amos). (Where do think the idea of major and minor prophets comes form?) Some were given a message of warning, others of encouragement, and still others future telling. And this is just scratching the surface.

3.) Is a prophet inspired 100% of the time, in 100% of what they do, say and write? If so, why did EGW need , editors, proof-reading staff, researchers? Why did she edit and rewrite her own materials? Why did she change/modify/correct/abandon some of her views over time? Why do you think she directed people to NOT rely on her words, but to go to the Bible themselves for truth? And the Biblical evidence suggests prophets having faulty inspiration comprehension.

4.) Can God call a prophet for a limited purpose, or for a limited time? Can God have part-time prophets? Can God speak through anyone not technically a prophet? (How about a donkey?) Does God need to speak through humans at all? Why limit God?

Tom

[John317]

1.) You are confusing sinfulness with fallibility. They are not the same thing. One can be mistaken without sinning. One can be sinless and have limitations.

Of course those two are not the same thing. Not sure why you would think I am confusing them. One refers to our moral fallenness, our sinful nature; the other refers to the fact that we are able to make mistakes, and in terms of Ellen White, it would have to do with her writing something that was not completely true or accurate.

All humans, except for Jesus Christ, have been both sinful and fallible, including the prophets and apostles. Whether they did in fact make mistakes in their writing is open to debate, but theoretically they were all fallible men, capable of doing so.

Many books have been written by people who believed they had strong evidence showing that the prophets and apostle did make errors. There's no need to argue whether they were sinful or not because no on denies it; it's right there in the Bible itself.

[Robert]

Is a prophet inspired 100% of the time, in 100% of what they do, say and write? If so, why did EGW need , editors, proof-reading staff, researchers? Why did she edit and rewrite her own materials? Why did she change/modify/correct/abandon some of her views over time? Why do you think she directed people to NOT rely on her words, but to go to the Bible themselves for truth? And the Biblical evidence suggests prophets having faulty inspiration comprehension.

Excellent point!

[Robert]

Redwood, Tom, Robert...do you agree with me here or not that this is a futile argument and a waste of time?

Not sure, but you and Tom have some good points. The thing is EGW is not a test of fellowship with the SDA church, so I don't understand why some wish to promote her to the degree they do....

Rob

[fccool]

I'm just curious... why doesn't SDA church endorse this guy as a prophet?

http://4hispeople.com/dreams.html

[John317]

... The inspiration of all true prophets is NOT the same. God spoke to his prophets in different ways at different times. Inspiration also requires an human receptacle and none of the Prophets of old were alike or equal. He spoke to some directly, some he sent an angel, some he gave dreams and visions. Some he gave miracle working authority. And some he just granted superior wisdom and discernment. Some he gave eloquence, others a thick tongue. Some were educated and were talented writers, others were simple farmers, with no education or writing ability.

Your entire paragraph here does not deal with inspiration but with the differences between people and circumstances, which is not the same things as the nature of inspiration. What is inspiration anyway? You do not seem to have a clue, Tom.

Of course the prophets were different, because all individuals are different. That is nothing. The difference between visions and sending an angel, etc., is the mode of communication, not inspiration per se.

Although Ellen White claimed inspiration of the Holy Spirit equal to that experienced by the Bible writers-- "The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy" (3 SM 30)-- she recognizes her position as a literary noncanonical prophet. What she was inspired to write carries the authority of God, but it is (1) to take its place subservient to Scripture; and (2) to illuminate and clarify Scripture. "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." (3 SM 30).

Quote:

The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy. These are not to be twisted and turned to mean what man may want them to mean, to carry out man's ideas and sentiments, to carry forward man's schemes at all hazards. "Many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of, and through covetousness shall with feigned words make merchandise of you" [2 Peter 2:2]. We must stand as vigilant soldiers, guarding against the entrance of one wrong principle.-- Manuscript Releases Volume Two [Nos. 97-161] (1987), page 189, paragraph 2; Letter 92, 1900, p. 3. (To J. H. Kellogg, July 2, 1900.)--Letter 92, 1900; Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 30, paragraph 3

In plain terms inspiration is the guidance of the Holy Spirit to communicate the message of God through a prophet, or spokesperson for God. That guidance may involve dreams and visions or hearing the voice of angels or Christ. See 2 Peter 1: 21-- ""men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit." 2 Tim. 3: 16-- "Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration)."

See the following for information on inspiration--

The Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology, Vol. 12 of the SDA BC, pp. 619- 634.

Excellent books on the topic--

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/vots/vots.html

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt2.html#Verbal%20Inspiration%20or

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/agp/agptoc.html

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pay/PAYc04.html#pg52

Quote:

TOM WETMORE-- God gave some prophets much (Isaiah, Moses) others he gave very little (Jonah, Amos). (Where do think the idea of major and minor prophets comes form?) Some were given a message of warning, others of encouragement, and still others future telling. And this is just scratching the surface.

Major and minor is not related to the amount or degree of inspiration. It has to do with the length of their books, Tom. None of those other things you mention-- warning, encouragement, or "future telling," as you call it-- are distinguished by a difference in inspiration. They have to do with purpose of the prophet's message, not the nature of inspiration.

I would have been grateful if you had scratched the surface. A pity you didn't do it.

Go deep, go much deeper.

[John317]

I'm just curious... why doesn't SDA church endorse this guy as a prophet?

http://4hispeople.com/dreams.html

Because he writes things that contradict what God revealed through both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. There are other reasons.

God does not send a prophet to say something that contradicts previous genuine revelations.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: guibox

Redwood, Tom, Robert...do you agree with me here or not that this is a futile argument and a waste of time?

Not sure, but you and Tom have some good points. The thing is EGW is not a test of fellowship with the SDA church, so I don't understand why some wish to promote her to the degree they do....

Rob

There is a good reason the Spirit of Prophecy is not a test of fellowship. It would be a bad thing because people need to be sincerely and truly persuaded by personal study and prayer that she is a true prophet. It should never be due to any other reason. If the church commanded belief in the gifts of the Spirit, including the writing of Ellen White, belief would often be based on "force" and not on true conviction.

But if she is a true prophet and if God raised her up for a purpose, we need to be aware of it and study what she wrote.

Do those who study Paul's writings and urge people to read them promote Paul? Or do they promote the messages that God inspired?

[guibox]

Because he writes things that contradict what God revealed through both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. There are other reasons.

God does not send a prophet to say something that contradicts previous genuine revelations.

So then anything EGW endorsed or interpreted cannot be changed or considered wrong?

Therefore, she DOES remain the final interpreter of scripture. Any deviation from fresh bible study cannot be true by definition. Therefore, we CAN say (or should if we truly believe it) that EGW has solidified all truth and biblical interpretation and the SDA church does (and always has) interpreted all doctrine and all biblical dogma correct.

In other words to use the Catholic church "The SDA church has not erred and cannot err' according to biblical interpretation.

Why don't people just come out and say this? Why not just say, 'We are a sectarian organization that has had the truth interpreted and delivered to us infallibly by through EGW'

This is what you really believe. When all the smoke and mirrors and double talk and speaking out of both sides of the mouth is cleared away...

THIS is what many in the church ultimately believe.

THIS is false theology and cultism.

Is this the kind of church we belong to, that takes this official stance? I don't think so.

Therefore, this kind of thinking must be wrong! So why do people keep promoting this view of the church??

[John317]

3.) Is a prophet inspired 100% of the time, in 100% of what they do, say and write?

Of course not. The church has never taught that Ellen White or any other prophet was "inspired 100% of the time" in everything they ever do, say or write. Inspiration does not require or imply that anyone is inspired 100% of the time. That is not even important or relevant to the issue at hand.

See 1 SM 25 to 45 for comments where Ellen White discusses the difference between her ordinary talk and writing and those things that are inspired.

Quote:

If so, why did EGW need , editors, proof-reading staff, researchers? Why did she edit and rewrite her own materials?

Why did Bible writers do the same? Jeremiah had Baruch's assistance in writing some of his messages. And we know that Paul also had help with his. Luke no doubt had help with his, and went through various research processes.

Are you suggesting that those things are proof or evidences of a lack of "inspiration"?

It sounds more likely that you are influenced by people who once believed in verbal inspiration and are disillusioned and have lost their faith because it was founded on false beliefs and understandings to begin with.

Quote:

Why did she change/modify/correct/abandon some of her views over time?

Every human being grows and develops and becomes more aware. Ellen White was no different. To believe that this means her writings are not dependable or true shows that you have a misunderstanding of inspiration.

The question is, what did Ellen White claim to have seen in vision that she later abandoned or corrected or changed?

It goes without saying that like any other human, she had some wrong beliefs and concepts. The Bible prophets and apostles certainly were wrong about some things. John the Baptist-- the "greatest of the prophets"-- was very wrong about a number of things, wasn't he? Is God dependent on finding someone without any errors in their thinking before he can inspire them to write messages for His people? If He is, He won't ever find anyone.

Quote:

Why do you think she directed people to NOT rely on her words, but to go to the Bible themselves for truth?

Because our faith is to be firmly established on the Bible, and God wants us to study it and know it. It would be dangerous for us to think that the fundamentals of our faith and beliefs can be based on sources outside of the Bible. It's essential that we study and know God's inspired word.

Quote:

And the Biblical evidence suggests prophets having faulty inspiration comprehension.

You mean prophets sometimes do not understand what God is showing them in vision or dreams? That is true. Does that mean, though, that God is unable to get the message through to human beings? Evidently not. See Daniel, for instance. Plenty of people are able to understand the book of Daniel even though Daniel himself did not understand much of his own prophecy. You can be sure Ezekiel also did not understand a lot that he saw and wrote about. Same with Moses and Isaiah and the Apostle John. In fact, Jesus Himself did not know all things while here on the earth. He learned and developed, too.

But none of that keeps a true prophets writings and messages from being what God intended them to be. If God wants a prophet to give us a message, He certainly is able to see that it is done right.

Quote:

4.) Can God call a prophet for a limited purpose, or for a limited time?

God can do anything He wants, of course. There were prophets in the Bible who we know almost nothing about, and who left no inspired writings. Therefore it is self-evident that God can use a prophet for a limited time. All prophets, except Christ, have limited purposes and are limited as to time as well. That would not be unique to Ellen White.

But as far as that goes, is there anything in Ellen White's writings that would cause us to believe that God showed her that we should now discount or ignore her messages, or that people should do so some time before Christ returns?

Quote:

Can God have part-time prophets?

Again, God is free to do anything He wants to do.

But can you give an example in Scripture of a genuine, "part-time prophet"?

Quote:

Can God speak through anyone not technically a prophet? (How about a donkey?)

He could speak through a rock if He needed to. I suppose he could speak through a termite or a snow-cone if He chose to do it.

Quote:

Does God need to speak through humans at all?

He has spoken, as you say, through a donkey. He has also spoken through the storm, and from the sky, apart from anyone or anything. The last time he spoke before a large group of people, it was to proclaim the Ten Commandments.

Quote:

Why limit God?

Why, indeed? Why limit God and say He could not communicate his messages exactly the way He wants, through a little old woman named Ellen White?

[True-believer]

So, is Ellen G. White the spirit of Prophecy?

Is her teachings ok?

I've noticed that when you read any of her books it gets you to read your Bible more.

Ellen White clearly states her authority on the Lord Jesus Christ.

She clearly tells us that she is NOT in the light and places Jesus in the light.

She encourages us to read our Bible more and more and also to keep our eyes focused on our loving Savior--Jesus Christ.

The test of a Biblical Prophet is:

1) Do they point to Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

2) Do they encourage us to read our Bible more?

3) Do they uplift Jesus Christ everywhere and all the time?

Ellen White very clearly in her books does do all these things.

I'm not even an Seventh-day Adventist Christian yet, and I can see that.

Please study the Biblical Test of a True Prophet of God, and you'll see that Ellen G. White passes that test, because she is a true prophet of God.

[Gail]

You know what, Luke? Her work has the same effect on me!

I am reading both the Desire of Ages right now (about the life of Jesus) and am following Beryl's study on Jesus' parables in Christ's Object Lessons here and I find something deep in every paragraph.

The words have been a real blessing to me and tend to lift me up. AND I love my Bible even more when I do read them! I don't do this as a substitute for Bible reading, but in addition to all the other reading I do, Bible included.

[John317]

So, is Ellen G. White the spirit of Prophecy?

Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and this gift was the Spirit of Prophecy and was shown in the messages she wrote.

The expression “spirit of prophecy” refers specifically to the “manifestation of the Spirit” in the form of a special gift of the Holy Spirit that inspires the recipient and enables him to speak authoritatively as a representative of God.

Revelation 19:10 NRSV “Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."”

Ellen White on a number of occasions used the expression to refer to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in her ministry and work.

Just two examples--

Again the spirit of prophecy shed light upon the situation, pointing out the difficulty and the remedy. As the light has been followed, relief has come, the message has gone with leaps and bounds, and the resources have increased wonderfully. The great need of the hour is consecrated men and women whose faith and experience has grown strong in grappling with difficulty and in undertaking great things for the cause of God.

The publishing work, like every other department of the message, was started under the light and fostering care of the spirit of prophecy. Its aim was missionary, to disseminate the light of present truth. But as the work enlarged and the publishing work was committed to the wisdom of men, it grew into a great commercial machine that was working more for the world than for the spread of the message. Men conceived the idea of centralizing our publishing work under one great combine to be ruled by the great men at the head of the work. High wages were paid, and the missionary spirit left the work as the spirit of the world came in. The spirit of prophecy called for a change of plans in our publishing work, it called for a distribution of the abundant facilities established at Battle Creek to assist plants in more needy fields, but called in vain. The wisdom of men, which was the wisdom of the world, could see no light in distributing. There seemed to be no remedy for God to correct the evils in this department of His work but to let His judgments fall upon the institution.

Loma Linda Messages (1981), page 33-35

[Tom Wetmore]

There were some points to which I could respond buried in the avalanche of words you have expended to say not much new or different... But it's just not worth the bother...

What exactly is it that compels you to try to dominate and control every single discussion and run it totally off the rails and into the ground?

Here is some inspiration I just received - STOP wasting my time!

Tom

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Moses was also a sinner and fallible. So was David, Samuel, Jeremiah, Elijah, Enoch, Paul, John, Peter, James. True?

The only difference between Ellen White and those people is that she lived in our time, long after the canon was closed.

But the inspiration of all the true prophets of God is the same.

If she was a prophet-- and I believe she was-- then she was inspired of God. A prophet cannot be half inspired-- either they are inspired or not inspired.

Does a prophet have to be without sin in order for their writings to be dependable and true? If he or she must be, then we're in big trouble because it would mean the Bible is not dependable, for all the writers were fallible, sinful people.

Is the Bible absolutely without any error at all? If you think so, which ancient manuscript and which translation is completely without any error?

Which apostle and prophet had ALL knowledge? Can you name any?

This is, as you called it, "getting down to the brass tacks of the matter."

In other words, David was fallible. A murderer, adulterer and drinker. But the Psalms are inspired infallible word guided by the Holy Spirit...thus so is EGW.

Is that it in a nutshell, John? If so, it lets all of us know just where you come from and what to expect from you.

And yes, there is a big difference between David and Sister White...

David's writings are part of the infallible Canon for the full truth of our lives....EGW and her writings were not. And she'd be the first to tell you you that.

Yes, the main difference between the Bible and Ellen White is not the degree of Inspiration but the fact that the Bible is the canon and Ellen White lived 2000 years after the canon was closed. If Ellen White was an inspired prophet of God-- which I am convinced she was-- then she was as inspired as anyone in the Bible was inspired. A prophet can't be half or partly inspired any more than a woman can be partly pregnant. Hosea was not only partly inspired and Isaiah completely inspired, for instance.

Although Ellen White claimed inspiration of the Holy Spirit equal to that experienced by the Bible writers-- "The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy" (3 SM 30)-- she recognizes her position as a literary noncanonical prophet. What she was inspired to write carries the authority of God, but it is (1) to take its place subservient to Scripture; and (2) to illuminate and clarify Scripture. "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." (3 SM 30).

Quote:

The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy. These are not to be twisted and turned to mean what man may want them to mean, to carry out man's ideas and sentiments, to carry forward man's schemes at all hazards. "Many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of, and through covetousness shall with feigned words make merchandise of you" [2 Peter 2:2]. We must stand as vigilant soldiers, guarding against the entrance of one wrong principle.-- Manuscript Releases Volume Two [Nos. 97-161] (1987), page 189, paragraph 2; Letter 92, 1900, p. 3. (To J. H. Kellogg, July 2, 1900.)--Letter 92, 1900; Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 30, paragraph 3

In plain terms inspiration is the guidance of the Holy Spirit to communicate the message of God through a prophet, or spokesperson for God. That guidance may involve dreams and visions or hearing the voice of angels or Christ. See 2 Peter 1: 21-- ""men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit." 2 Tim. 3: 16-- "Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration)."

Excellent books on the inspiration of Ellen White--

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/vots/vots.html

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt2.html#Verbal%20Inspiration%20or

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/agp/agptoc.html

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pay/PAYc04.html#pg52

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore

... The inspiration of all true prophets is NOT the same. God spoke to his prophets in different ways at different times. Inspiration also requires an human receptacle and none of the Prophets of old were alike or equal. He spoke to some directly, some he sent an angel, some he gave dreams and visions. Some he gave miracle working authority. And some he just granted superior wisdom and discernment. Some he gave eloquence, others a thick tongue. Some were educated and were talented writers, others were simple farmers, with no education or writing ability.

Your entire paragraph here does not deal with inspiration but with the differences between people and circumstances, which is not the same things as the nature of inspiration. What is inspiration anyway? You do not seem to have a clue, Tom.

Of course the prophets were different, because all individuals are different. That is nothing. The difference between visions and sending an angel, etc., is the mode of communication, not inspiration per se.

Although Ellen White claimed inspiration of the Holy Spirit equal to that experienced by the Bible writers-- "The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy" (3 SM 30)-- she recognizes her position as a literary noncanonical prophet. What she was inspired to write carries the authority of God, but it is (1) to take its place subservient to Scripture; and (2) to illuminate and clarify Scripture. "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." (3 SM 30).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Is a prophet inspired 100% of the time, in 100% of what they do, say and write? If so, why did EGW need , editors, proof-reading staff, researchers? Why did she edit and rewrite her own materials? Why did she change/modify/correct/abandon some of her views over time? Why do you think she directed people to NOT rely on her words, but to go to the Bible themselves for truth? And the Biblical evidence suggests prophets having faulty inspiration comprehension.

Excellent point!

Let's see how excellent Tom Wetmore's paragraph really is:

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Tom Wetmore

3.) Is a prophet inspired 100% of the time, in 100% of what they do, say and write?

Of course not. The church has never taught that Ellen White or any other prophet was "inspired 100% of the time" in everything they ever do, say or write. Inspiration does not require or imply that anyone is inspired 100% of the time. That is not even important or relevant to the issue at hand.

See 1 SM 25 to 45 for comments where Ellen White discusses the difference between her ordinary talk and writing and those things that are inspired.

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If so, why did EGW need , editors, proof-reading staff, researchers? Why did she edit and rewrite her own materials?

Why did Bible writers do the same? Jeremiah had Baruch's assistance in writing some of his messages. And we know that Paul also had help with his. Luke no doubt had help with his, and went through various research processes.

Are you suggesting that those things are proof or evidences of a lack of "inspiration"?

It sounds more likely that you are influenced by people who once believed in verbal inspiration and are disillusioned and have lost their faith because it was founded on false beliefs and understandings to begin with.

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Why did she change/modify/correct/abandon some of her views over time?

Every human being grows and develops and becomes more aware. Ellen White was no different. To believe that this means her writings are not dependable or true shows that you have a misunderstanding of inspiration.

The question is, what did Ellen White claim to have seen in vision that she later abandoned or corrected or changed?

It goes without saying that like any other human, she had some wrong beliefs and concepts. The Bible prophets and apostles certainly were wrong about some things. John the Baptist-- the "greatest of the prophets"-- was very wrong about a number of things, wasn't he? So were Peter and James very wrong. James had some wrong thinking in Acts. 21, about the same year when he wrote the Epistle of James. Some argue that he even let his wrong ideas color his Inspired writing, just like some argue in regard to Ellen White.

Is God dependent on finding someone without any errors in their thinking before he can inspire them to write messages for His people? If He is, He won't ever find anyone.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Moses was also a sinner and fallible. So was David, Samuel, Jeremiah, Elijah, Enoch, Paul, John, Peter, James. True?

The only difference between Ellen White and those people is that she lived in our time, long after the canon was closed.

But the inspiration of all the true prophets of God is the same.

If she was a prophet-- and I believe she was-- then she was inspired of God. A prophet cannot be half inspired-- either they are inspired or not inspired.

Does a prophet have to be without sin in order for their writings to be dependable and true? If he or she must be, then we're in big trouble because it would mean the Bible is not dependable, for all the writers were fallible, sinful people.

Is the Bible absolutely without any error at all? If you think so, which ancient manuscript and which translation is completely without any error?

Which apostle and prophet had ALL knowledge? Can you name any?

This is, as you called it, "getting down to the brass tacks of the matter."

... there is a big difference between David and Sister White...

David's writings are part of the infallible Canon for the full truth of our lives....EGW and her writings were not. And she'd be the first to tell you you that.

Still waiting for the big difference between David and Ellen White-- other than the fact that the Psalms are part of the canon, that is. We already knew that. What else is different? The Psalms are part of the canon because--- well, just because David lived 3000 years before Ellen White.

That's the only reason. It has nothing to do with a difference in the inspiration or reliability or purity of the truth. It is simply that God guided in the writing and the selection of the Psalms, and He also had them collected and included in the Hebrew Scriptures.

And yes, it is certainly true that Ellen White is to be tested by Scripture. Ellen White cannot be used to test Scripture. Why? Simply because the Scriptures were written first. In the same way we test Joshua by Moses, not Moses by Joshua. God does not send a prophet who will contradict a previous prophet. That would make God a liar or changeable, and God is immutable just like His Holy Law. (Unless you buy into "process theology.")

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David was part of new canon. Formation of the original word of God for our lives.

Sure.

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EGW was not adding new dogma or establishing a new religion with an original creed like the Scriptures.

Of course not.

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EGW and the scriptures are NOT the same, and are not on the same level.

They are not the same because one is canon and the other is not. But they were both equally inspired. There is no different degrees of inspiration between the true prophets. You can't justifiably say that Moses was more inspired than Joel or that Paul was more inspired than Peter. If that is true of canonical prophets, there is no reason to believe it does not apply equally to true prophets whose writings didn't make it into the canon. If the Holy Spirit guided Ellen White and inspired her in writing out her visions-- and I believe He did-- then she was inspired. You can't be partly inspired-- a prophet of God either is inspired or is not. Ellen White said she was.

She wrote,

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The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy*. These are not to be twisted and turned to mean what man may want them to mean, to carry out man's ideas and sentiments, to carry forward man's schemes at all hazards. "Many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of, and through covetousness shall with feigned words make merchandise of you" [2 Peter 2:2]. We must stand as vigilant soldiers, guarding against the entrance of one wrong principle.-- Manuscript Releases Volume Two [Nos. 97-161] (1987), page 189, paragraph 2; Letter 92, 1900, p. 3. (To J. H. Kellogg, July 2, 1900.)--Letter 92, 1900; Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 30, paragraph 3

Either she is lying or telling the truth. I believe she was telling the truth, and I believe the evidence supports her. We all have to make up our minds.

*Let know if you require evidence that she was referring to the Holy Spirit as manifested in her ministry when she used the term "the Spirit of Prophecy."