Stan Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 One Clergy from another faith told me once... "Socialism is Christianity with clothes on" or something similar.. Yet is seems to be the enemy of some professing Christians... Thoughts? ( I may have brought this up before, after I was told that but do not recall ) Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 To me, socialism is the belief that everyone deserves a chance in life, coupled with the realisation that not everyone starts out with the same advantages I had. It's as simple as that. Some derive those beliefs from Christianity, some from other sources, some claim that they are at the heart of Christianity... and others somehow believe they are the antithesis of Christianity. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I think the thought comes from the book of Acts where the disciples sold everything they had, pooled the money and gave each according to their need. That works great when everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit. However if a person happens to live a a country where not every citizen is filled with the Holy Spirit, socialism might not work out as well as it did for the disciples. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Quote: That works great when everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit. However if a person happens to live a a country where not every citizen is filled with the Holy Spirit, socialism might not work out as well as it did for the disciples. Are we talkin' about the USA here? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 Socialism begins with the assumption that the state has the duty to take care of all of its citizens from the crib to the casket. It assumes that people won't be able to satisfy their needs apart from a central government. To do this, it believes it has the right to compel citizens to give up money which they worked for, in order to give it to others who didn't work for it. It believes it has the right to redistribute society's wealth by force, and to control the means of production. Under socialism, the state is no longer the servant of its citizenry but the citizens are servants to the state. Quote: socialism An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism All of this is completely different from the socialism or "communism" that was practiced in Acts 2: 44, 45. There the giving was completely voluntary, done by Christians under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Americans didn't organize their government in order to take away the rights of the people to individual freedom and free enterprise, including the right to own and manage businesses, and the right to decide how to use all of their money. Our Republic was founded with the object of keeping maximum power in the hands of the individual and preventing the state from taking it away. If socialism comes to this country, the American people should be given a straightforward choice in the matter. They should be told exactly what it is. Socialism shouldn't be brought in under a disguise of any kind. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 John317, how do you react to the idea that the government is out of the business of controlling capital in the US, but big business is in it up to its neck? You seem to be talking as if, with no government interference, every individual is as free as a bird... but who hires, fires, pays and so on all employees? (a majority of people in the country). There's not a vacuum of central control, it's just that the control is wielded by corporations, not government. But you can't vote out a corporation... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 ...and there are versions of socialism other than state socialism Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 The government has been out of the business of controlling capital for many years. The Federal Reserve is a private bank. I am not big on conspiracies but consider this: When President Bush appointed someone to the Supreme Court it controlled the media headlines for a number of weeks. Senators grilled the candidates worse than a father interviewing his daughter's first date. Yet when President Bush appointed Bernanke as the Federal Reserve chair it made a brief mention in the news and his confirmation slipped through with no objections. Why was that? This guy controls the money supply and Congress was more concerned about a Supreme Court appointment than the chair of the Federal Reserve? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 Bravus, Is this paragraph from the wikipedia on Australia's economy correct and current? Would you like to see socialism in Australia? And if so, what kind? How do most other Australian's think about it? Quote: Australia is one of the most laissez-faire capitalist economies, according to indices of economic freedom. Australia's per capita GDP is slightly higher than that of the UK, Germany, and France in terms of purchasing power parity. The country was ranked third in the United Nations 2007 Human Development Index, first in Legatum's 2008 Prosperity Index, and sixth in The Economist worldwide Quality-of-Life Index for 2005. All of Australia's major cities fare well in global comparative liveability surveys; Melbourne reached 2nd place on The Economist's 2008 World's Most Livable Cities list, followed by Perth at 4th, Adelaide at 7th, and Sydney at 9th. The emphasis on exporting commodities rather than manufactures has underpinned a significant increase in Australia's terms of trade during the rise in commodity prices since the start of the century. Australia has a balance of payments that is more than 7% of GDP negative, and has had persistently large current account deficits for more than 50 years. Australia has grown at an average annual rate of 3.6% for over 15 years, a period in which the OECD annual average was 2.5%. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 (to John317's post above - ichabod snuck in between ) And yet we have a large public education system and a public health-care system, government benefits for the sick, disabled and unemployed, and compulsory (but privately operated) superannuation as well as an age pension. By US standards we're nearly as socialist as a Scandinavian country! Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Quote: ichabod snuck in between ) My bad. Didn't know it was a private discussion. I'm gone now. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Socialism is the motto of Robin Hood. "Take from the Rich and give to the poor" Wealth redistribution. Communism proved that does not work but it does not mean others may try it to a lessor extent. Such as taxing everyone higher to give more to the poorer. That does tend to make everyone want to work less hard to obtain wealth as why work if the government will just take it away and give it to someone else. Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 ichabod, typically, goes for the sarcastic response and misses the point entirely, then takes offense at something entirely friendly... Door... butt... way out... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2009 You guys are concentrating on those who won't work, but ignoring those who can't work. Who takes care of the sick, the disabled, the mentally ill and those who have no job skills? And don't say 'family' because we know in a sin-sick world, and don't say 'charity' because it doesn't get the job done. What does the Bible say about what we should do for the poor and the widows and those less fortunate? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2009 It seems oddly ironic to me that those who deride socialistic ideas run by the government/political systems are OK with it done by charity/religion. The irony is that those same people approach their politics with passionate religious fervor as if politics is their religion. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Quote: goes for the sarcastic response and misses the point entirely, then takes offense at something entirely friendly wrong on both counts contrary evidence may be ironic, but it is not sarcastic. I did not take offense. I just got out of the way, trying, unsuccessfully, to avoid being sniped at. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Quote: What does the Bible say about what we should do for the poor and the widows and those less fortunate? What does the Bible say we should do about keeping the Sabbath? What does the Bible say we should do about honoring parents? What does the Bible say we should do about coveting? In a sin-filled world, people don't do many of the things they should. And many of those things don't get done, by and large. The universal Sunday Law we talk about will be brought in by precisely the logic you're using. People ought to do something they don't do. Everyone suffers because they don't do it. Therefore, we will compel it by law. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2009 I think the point was that the number or volume of admonitions, directives, commands, etc. in the Bible about caring for the poor, the widows,the orphans, the foreigners, etc. far outweigh and outnumber all of the 3 you listed combined. And when you account for the typical conservative evangelical hobby horse polital/moral topics of homosexuality and the unborn, you find a total eclipse, Biblically speaking, of those issues too by the divine directive to care for the poor, the hungry, the naked, etc. Read Isaiah 58. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Quote: I think the point was that the number or volume of admonitions, directives, commands, etc. in the Bible about caring for the poor, the widows,the orphans, the foreigners, etc. far outweigh and outnumber all of the 3 you listed combined. So your position would be that because they are mentioned more often, they should be compelled? Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Quote: What does the Bible say about what we should do for the poor and the widows and those less fortunate? What does the Bible say about those that won't work? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 It seems oddly ironic to me that those who deride socialistic ideas run by the government/political systems are OK with it done by charity/religion. How is that oddly ironic? Government obligates society by force. Government takes our money by force via taxes and does with it as they please. Religion makes pleas for offerings and receives money voluntarily from the hearts of the generous. If socialist programs are so good and worthwhile, why do they need to to funded by a government taking the money by force? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 It seems oddly ironic to me that those who deride socialistic ideas run by the government/political systems are OK with it done by charity/religion. The irony is that those same people approach their politics with passionate religious fervor as if politics is their religion. That is simple. We give voluntary to charities but when it comes to the government they take without our permission. Now if we the people voted on each tax rather then elected representatives then we would have more of a say in how our money is spent. I doubt people appreciate having their hard earned money taken by the federal government and given to institutions we do not approve of. With Charities we pick and choose who we support and how much of our money goes to it. Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2009 Did you skip the very next sentence as you rushed to respond? I said, "The irony is that those same people approach their politics with passionate religious fervor as if politics is their religion." Those most fervently against govenment helping the poor, thinking it better for charity/religion to do so, seem not at all bothered to vigorously advocate that government should enforce their pet religious views on abortion and homosexuality and do so with religious/moralisitc fervor often louder and more often than for any relgious/moral issue they hold that is not in the political arena. Yes, oddly ironic... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2009 ...I doubt people appreciate having their hard earned money taken by the federal government and given to institutions we do not approve of. Like say, the Pentagon... Consider the proportion the US government pours into national defense with what it spends on let's say, education, addressing world hunger, AIDS research, wiping out iliteracy, helping orphans, providing clean water for third world... Quote: With Charities we pick and choose who we support and how much of our money goes to it. And which charities did you pick and how much of your money did you put toward that? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 8, 2009 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2009 So your position would be that because they are mentioned more often, they should be compelled? I believe you were the one talking about being compelled... Originally Posted By: ichabod In a sin-filled world, people don't do many of the things they should. And many of those things don't get done, by and large. The universal Sunday Law we talk about will be brought in by precisely the logic you're using. People ought to do something they don't do. Everyone suffers because they don't do it. Therefore, we will compel it by law. I think you answered your own question already... But if you would rather have a government not compel things that cause suffering, why worry about speed limits, DWI, drug abuse, alcohol consumption age limits, civil rights, prostitution... Do you believe that charity/religion are already addressing poverty/hunger/illiteracy/AIDS/widows/orphans... adequately? If so, why do we still have those problems? If not, why not? Also see my answer to Cyberguy just above... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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