Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 No pushing buttons. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 It's not fun any more. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 But I will not abandon it to them without a fight Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 It's not fun any more. It would be if we keep emotion out of it and stay to proven facts. Then, we can discuss without personal attacks. I have always enjoyed talking politics and religion with people that actually listen then share their views without venom. One should never enter into a hot topic expecting to convert another. That excites frustration and anger. I try to approach discussions with the intent on exposing the hypocrisy or flaws of a belief not well presented. One of my better friends (not best, because I have only known him for perhaps 8 months) is a flaming liberal, yet we have wonderful discussions and he makes me think, hard sometimes. I like that. Nobody attacks, we don't have to drag out the 'OH YEAH?!?'s. I'd like to see us do that here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 So would I, absolutely. It's the spirit I've tried to post in for all of the several years I've been here. But just lately the place is filled with really rude, hateful conservative posts. I don't watch Fox, and I don't come here to have Fox shoved down my throat. And I certainly don't come her for ichabod's rude, destructive jibes. Everyone else tries in their way to build the place up, all he *ever* does is tear down. I desperately want this to be a clean and civil place of discussion. But it's out of balance and there's some cleaning up to be done. As they say in 'Serenity': I aim to misbehave. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 I should note that I see both Redwood and Shane as friends, but think Shane's 'What Liberals Hate...' thread was toxic and ill-advised, and think perhaps Redwood needs his own 'what I saw on Fox today' forum that I don't have to read. Both good guys, both making this forum a worse place at the moment. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Welcome, Bravus, to the mis-informed Adventist Club... [tic] There is so much to say regarding this... I've enjoyed your posts and the reasons behind your thinking...but when ubber conconservatives post [not to mention any names because there I am tired of naming names], they can't get past thier absolute assumptions that they insist is real... The insistance that goverment doles out money to individuals without checks and balances is not reality anymore....The famous one here is the "welfare mom" having kids to stay at home....Currently, those "welfare moms" are limited to about 2 years of programs and after that, they are cut off from payments. They are encouraged to go to school and make something of themselves...If they can show that they are doing something to get off 'welfare', the district can/may extend the benefits a bit...but mostly, that type of person is off the welfare payrolls within 24 months...and yet, these uber conservatives continue to mouth off, reciting their former experiences like it is happening today. The are so out of current touch today... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 But unfortunately that exactly what politics does, it seems to bring out the worst in people. My brother is a diehard republican and if you bring up any subject about democrats he becomes another person. So I never say anything or at least try not to mention anything I like about democrats because I will get an ear full.. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Is your brother named "Redwood" or "Keyguy"? Just thought I would ask... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Is your brother named "Redwood" or "Keyguy" Why, yes! We're all brothers. I hope we never forget our common bond in any of these discussions. Sometimes families have internal squabbles that appear pretty rough, yet the cops would tell you that they'd be screaming and yelling upon their arrival to a domestic, then find the same members defending each other at the drop of a hat. I'd like to think that Christian love runs way deeper than our disagreements here. HUGS!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I... think Shane's 'What Liberals Hate...' thread was toxic and ill-advised, Forgive me if I step on any toes here. The reason someone like Bravus may have read my post as toxic is because they personalized it. What I mean by that is they took out the word "liberal" and plugged in their own name. Then suddenly I wasn't bringing up an issue for discussion in the arena of ideas but I was attacking them personally. If, however, instead of plugging their name in for the word liberal they plugged in the name of a high profile liberal like Rosane Barr or Chris Matthews then they could approach the discussion from an outside perspective and participate in the healthy exchange of ideas. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outta Here Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Personalization of any label takes place when that label is used to identify ALL persons within that label. If the original title had read, "What [some] liberals hate..." then it might have had a different take all together. Instead, the title instilled animosity because of it's all-inclusive labeling. Much the same as if a title were to have read, "What Gets Redheads Hot Under the Collar..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Why, yes! We're all brothers. I hope we never forget our common bond in any of these discussions. Sometimes families have internal squabbles that appear pretty rough, yet the cops would tell you that they'd be screaming and yelling upon their arrival to a domestic, then find the same members defending each other at the drop of a hat. I'd like to think that Christian love runs way deeper than our disagreements here. HUGS!! Well said, KeyGuy, well said. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Bravus It's not fun any more. It would be if we keep emotion out of it and stay to proven facts. Then, we can discuss without personal attacks. I have always enjoyed talking politics and religion with people that actually listen then share their views without venom. One should never enter into a hot topic expecting to convert another. That excites frustration and anger. I try to approach discussions with the intent on exposing the hypocrisy or flaws of a belief not well presented. One of my better friends (not best, because I have only known him for perhaps 8 months) is a flaming liberal, yet we have wonderful discussions and he makes me think, hard sometimes. I like that. Nobody attacks, we don't have to drag out the 'OH YEAH?!?'s. I'd like to see us do that here. Well said KeyGuy. Thank you. This is exactly the truth. I hope all will read this and take it to heart. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 So would I, absolutely. It's the spirit I've tried to post in for all of the several years I've been here. But just lately the place is filled with really rude, hateful conservative posts. I don't watch Fox, and I don't come here to have Fox shoved down my throat. And I certainly don't come her for ichabod's rude, destructive jibes. Everyone else tries in their way to build the place up, all he *ever* does is tear down. I desperately want this to be a clean and civil place of discussion. But it's out of balance and there's some cleaning up to be done. As they say in 'Serenity': I aim to misbehave. At some point ... a moderator needs to step in and stop the personalization and personal attack by this poster. But since this is being refused ... I will step in. Bravus ... please take your issues to a PM. I am getting tired of reading your hate. It is obvious that you have an issue with Ichabod and it has poisoned this Forum. Please ... in the spirit of Matthew 18 ... please take it to HIM not US. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I should note that I see both Redwood and Shane as friends, but think Shane's 'What Liberals Hate...' thread was toxic and ill-advised, and think perhaps Redwood needs his own 'what I saw on Fox today' forum that I don't have to read. Both good guys, both making this forum a worse place at the moment. The Fox ban was tried and failed. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I should note that I see both Redwood and Shane as friends, but think Shane's 'What Liberals Hate...' thread was toxic and ill-advised, and think perhaps Redwood needs his own 'what I saw on Fox today' forum that I don't have to read. Both good guys, both making this forum a worse place at the moment. I consider you a brother. I am sorry for your pain. It seems that you have a lot of issues with various members here. I would recommend that you take them to PMs. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Neil D Is your brother named "Redwood" or "Keyguy" Why, yes! We're all brothers. I hope we never forget our common bond in any of these discussions. Sometimes families have internal squabbles that appear pretty rough, yet the cops would tell you that they'd be screaming and yelling upon their arrival to a domestic, then find the same members defending each other at the drop of a hat. I'd like to think that Christian love runs way deeper than our disagreements here. HUGS!! Cool. Finally a level head. I appreciate your comments KeyGuy. Thanks. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Bravus I... think Shane's 'What Liberals Hate...' thread was toxic and ill-advised, Forgive me if I step on any toes here. The reason someone like Bravus may have read my post as toxic is because they personalized it. What I mean by that is they took out the word "liberal" and plugged in their own name. Then suddenly I wasn't bringing up an issue for discussion in the arena of ideas but I was attacking them personally. If, however, instead of plugging their name in for the word liberal they plugged in the name of a high profile liberal like Rosane Barr or Chris Matthews then they could approach the discussion from an outside perspective and participate in the healthy exchange of ideas. Good Point Shane. We get into trouble by personalizing. I fear that this was what happened. The naming of names is what makes it toxic. This is against the rules. The rules need to be enforced when members are not able to control themselves. If you have an issue with a poster ... take it to a PM. Please. Otherwise ... just keep away from personalization. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 But I will not abandon it to them without a fight We really don't need this kind of attitude. We should be able to respectfully share IDEAS. If a quote is given from Fox ... it is usually found in most of the other networks. So, the hate does not need to be displayed. We are all Christians here. And our words and attitudes should reflect that. There should be no 'fighting'. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 What makes it toxic is that a massive percentage of posts are from conservatives attacking liberals and liberal ideas. Just have a look over all the started threads in this forum, plus World Affairs and Town Hall, over the past couple of weeks. How many were started by those identifying as conservatives and how many by liberals? How many bash liberals, in one way or another? Redwood, you're a good guy, but if you were watching Discovery all day instead of Fox all day and starting threads, perhaps this forum would be about the wonders of God's amazing creation and the marvels of science and adventure, not the hate and fear and contempt for other children of God that we see. It's not my 'emotional' reaction to the threads that makes them toxic, it's their content and intent, and the heart behind them. If you immerse yourself in poison, it's going to come out in what you post. As for ichabod, I've spent tens of hours on PM with him over the years, and tried everything from conciliation and apology and explanation to strong confrontation of his behaviour. Nothing has worked, and he just keeps on doing exactly what he does. Read all his posts for the past month, or year if you have the stomach. Has he started a good discussion? HAs he contributed anything? No - he always posts only to be sarcastic and superior, to put people down, to attack, and then hides behind his little semantic dodges of 'oh, I'm all pure, I never judge people's motives, I just talk about their posts'... when he talks about the posts in ways that to every reader except him clearly say that the poster he's talking about is an idiot or in some other way inferior. The bad thing is, basically none of these changes I'm seeking can be legislated. People could be banned, but that's not what I want. Maybe I just need to stay out of the Politics forum, and the mods need to be even more stringent in banishing all posts from other forums into this one. But I love the Adventist Forum. It's a big part of my life. I spend hours here every day and have done for years. But it's become a far less enjoyable place to be, and the reason is this massive wash of hardline conservative posting. I wish I could convince you that I don't only object because I'm a 'liberal' and disagree with the content, but because it pushes this whole site into being a battleground with fixed battle lines, instead of a place where a group of friends can chat about a wide range of interesting topics. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 Alternatively, I would be absolutely happy to start, build and run (the techie side of) but not mod, admin, participate in or read, an 'Adventist Conservatives' forum or whatever other name you want to call it. I don't want to take good posters away from here, but a site where a million posts can be made on conservative topics with no interference might help make everyone happier... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 Excellent post brother. The problem as I see it is those calling others names yet complaining that those others are calling them names. example would be the title of this thread. As far as me I'm neither a conservative, liberal, democrat or republican. Don't care for those so called categories. I know each person has their own feelings on any given subject, be it creation, evolution, religion, EGW, etc. And it seems to me that those that disagree with an issue do the same thing to those that disagree with them. Like Matthew 7:3 says "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but you do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" As far as I'm concerned everyone here is my brother and sister, and we don't need to agree on any given subject. But we can be civil to each other even if someone really gets on your nerves. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 I agree. But I've been trying to do this by example and by my own actions for years. Is it getting better? No, there's more rudeness, more slaps, more insults. It's disingenuous for Shane to make a rude comment about liberals and expect liberals not to take it personally. That's not my definition of being civil to each other. So I'm trying a different approach to the same goal. People are complaining that this thread is not civil. That's right - because being civil seems to have failed to quell others who are consistently uncivil. So perhaps they will understand their own language better? But the goal was always and is always a return to civility. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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