Moderators Bravus Posted March 25, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2009 OK, time to put my... mouth where my mouth is. I hated and resented it throughout the Bush presidency: whenever any criticism at all was made of Bush's actions, the response was never to address the issue, but always to say 'but Clinton did x...' And now I find I'm doing it back - responding to criticisms of Obama with comments about what Bush did. A lot of what Obama is facing has arisen as a consequence of things Bush did or failed to do, that's just factual. But I agree with my friend Redwood: we're here and we need to go forward from here. So that's the vow. I will respond to any critique of Obama on its merits. Where I think it has no merits - and there are a few of those going around - I'll just bite my lip. But where there's a real issue, I'll address it on its own merits and not refer anything back to Bush and the Bush administration. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Wow. I am impressed. My hat is off to you Bravus. Cool. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 I also comment Bravus, so now its your turn Redwood, no more bashing Clinton. pk phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Who did what is irrelevant. Whats important is to see the forest not just talk about a tree here or there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Who did what is irrelevant. Whats important is to see the forest not just talk about a tree here or there. nor any bushes in the undergrowth.... [tic] Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I also comment Bravus, so now its your turn Redwood, no more bashing Clinton. pk That may be difficult pk. But the bright side is the opportunity to bash Obama. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: pkrause I also comment Bravus, so now its your turn Redwood, no more bashing Clinton. pk That may be difficult pk. But the bright side is the opportunity to bash Obama. Perhaps I have lived in the land of despair and smile in bitterness at the naviety of the hope, but I just don't see that happening Bravus..I see the forces of negetivity and those who seek America's demise thru the short sighted thinking, and the absorbsion of propoganda of conservatisim over powering any sort of hope and crushing that hope with thier continued "bashing" at every oppertunity....It is one thing to find a true issue, it is quite another that every post reeks with dispairing remarks over every little detail of the Obama life... Even I would gladly quit wandering from the "get lost" command, if there were a welcoming remark from the same person....Instead, I hear both private and public the taunts of my following the command to "get lost, Neil". Oh yes, there are PMs that taunt my wanderings....IF only there was the 'Audacity of Hope', that there could be that mending...I doubt that it's possible...I have offered the extended hand, but there is only the slapping away... That is why, Bravus, that while I applaud your efforts, it's a rapidly fading dream due to the tenacity of those who desire to cut hope to ribbions... I will now return to my wanderings and continue to "get lost, Neil"..... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2009 Nah. The country's problems did not start with Bush or Clinton. It started when Washington started running deficits ad infinitum. Besides, it looks like democracy inherently has within itself the seeds for its own destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Guys, guys! First, the word 'bash' is a joke. That word is bandied about all the time to put ideologies on the defensive. You can't disagree with anyone or with a philosophy without 'bashing' anymore. I'm not falling for that. Second, I am proud to be a citizen of a country that provides the freedom for each of us (Americans) to hold to our own opinions. That freedom extends to those of other nations on our international forum. How cool!! America has picked her way through many rough trails on our quest to maintain the perfect country and (heated) disagreements have always been a part of that never-ending trip. Lastly, there is no way that I'm going to remain silent if I perceive that our nation's leaders (and forum members) are holding to opinions that are damaging to the Constitution, that bastion of freedom from gov't oppression that's been under assault an awful lot over the past few years. I pledge to do my best to not level personal attacks on those that disagree with me (unless their points of view are amazingly stupid... then I must expose that). I pledge to defend the truly inspired documents that have kept our country as the freedom magnet that it is for all mankind. Signed in permanent ink... Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted March 26, 2009 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2009 I pledge to do my best to not level personal attacks on those that disagree with me (unless their points of view are amazingly stupid... then I must expose that). I pledge to defend the truly inspired documents that have kept our country as the freedom magnet that it is for all mankind. Signed in permanent ink... Les THAT's the heart of the matter, IMHO. If we can speak against an issue, without speaking against another person, then I think we're honoring the purpose of this discussion board. But when I get personally criticized here, I just turn around and go away. That type of comment cuts off discussion, rather than fosters it. Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 keyguy, nice post with a little humor pk phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Yes pk. And OH do we need a little less seriousness and a lot more humor. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 when I get personally criticized here, I just turn around and go away. That type of comment cuts off discussion, rather than fosters it. That's happened way too often... not just here, but in many discussions (did someone say 'church board meetings'?). Sticking to the issues and debating the points of each are actually great fun. When done correctly, everyone learns, too. Remember when Dan Akroyd debated Jane Curtain on SNL? That was a very good parody of where debates sink so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Nah. The country's problems did not start with Bush or Clinton. It started when Washington started running deficits ad infinitum. Besides, it looks like democracy inherently has within itself the seeds for its own destruction. The question is ... Do we get out of this mess by further spending and increased deficits? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Hey Redwood, talk about spending. I was listening to NPR news a while back. They were interviewing some guy who was involved in the Japan economy problem about 15 years ago, give or take a few years. He was asked if the US is going about the problem with spending. He said they should spend, spend, spend, this is what japan did and they came out of it OK. My question to this guy now would be, if you came out of the situation, than how come your back in it now? Also on NPR they had these two financial economists on and asked them about the money situation, and they said that the debt in the US was around 3 trillion dollars and that the US should spent the same amount that they were in debt. The problem I see is you can get 100 financial economist together in the same room and I bet each one would have a different way of fixing it. pk phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 26, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2009 Alternative proposals very welcome. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 26, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2009 (maybe in a new thread) Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 I have the feeling that if someone actually had a good plan and emailed it to someone in government they would just ignore it anyway. Because there are 2 people I can think of that seem to be right up there as far as this goes, one is Suzie Orman (I believe this is her name, I don't particularly care for her) and the other is, oh man I can't think of his name now, but I see him on fox News and his books are sold at the ABC, but they seem to have answers for everyone! pk phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 26, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2009 Maybe I should have specified 'alternative plans that will actually work'. I'm not sure 'let the whole mess fall over and clean up afterwards' counts, though I could be persuaded with some actual economic/historical thought and evidence. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 The question is ... Do we get out of this mess by further spending and increased deficits? It depends on how you want to get out of the mess. Letting the fox guard the henhouse will probably lead to more of what got us into the mess, I think. Personally, I wouldn't throw a dime at those corporations. Let them sink and come what may. But we can't do that, because then who would give our politicians money to get re-elected? On the other hand, some honest investing in the future might help - but of course not fast enough for most people. We could be investing in higher education by making college more affordable. We could be making more money available for small business loans and giving more tax credits for small businesses. But you have to spend money to invest, so if you think we shouldn't be spending any more money, then you won't like investing. My point is that there's a difference between bailouts and investing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Quote: though I could be persuaded with some actual economic/historical thought and evidence. history demonstrates you would call that "waving away the evidence." “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 27, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 27, 2009 Gracious as always Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 facts is facts “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 28, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2009 ad hominem is ad hominem Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Quote: ad hominem consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim I said nothing about anyone's "characteristic or belief." On the contrary, I quoted an actual statement. Quote: Bravus wrote: And ichabod has managed to wave away all the evidence. Post #225432. So when you posted: Quote: though I could be persuaded with some actual economic/historical thought and evidence. I replied Quote: history demonstrates you would call that "waving away the evidence." You request evidence, but when it is given, you respond that it is "ad hominem ad hominem" Your reply "Gracious as always," if meant sarcastically, would in fact be ad hominem. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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