the health care debate...

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I don't know about other women but I did not mysteriously "end up pregnant"

Something on her part contributed to another child.

[/quote']

I can't see that Gail said anything about it being "mysterious." She simply said a woman ended up single and pregnant due to an impropriety on her husband's part. It sounds like the impropriety is what led to her become single.

Sounds like that just happened. The bottom line is that she would not have been turned away going to the hospital to have her baby. If she had three children and one on the way and a job that did not pay her a living wage she would have been eligible for free pre-natal care.

The husband either needed to be forced to pay for his child or go to jail. Going to jail can be a strong motivator to work.

[Liz]

I know that this isn't really what this thread is about but...

I had both my kids in hospital, with an epidural both times. The last time was a nightmare, the idiot nicked my spinal chord and leaked some spinal fluid giving me an instant migraine-which isn't much fun while laboring. Anyways, if I could do it over or even do it again, I would have my kids at home with a Dulla (sp?) or a Midwife.

O.k.

[bonnie]

I know that this isn't really what this thread is about but...

I had both my kids in hospital, with an epidural both times. The last time was a nightmare, the idiot nicked my spinal chord and leaked some spinal fluid giving me an instant migraine-which isn't much fun while laboring. Anyways, if I could do it over or even do it again, I would have my kids at home with a Dulla (sp?) or a Midwife.

O.k.

Having babies at home is more frequent than people know.

Mid-wives are connected to most hospitals. That is one on one,not a nurse going between patients. I am sure it has happened but I have not heard of any that have complaint of inferior care while having their baby at home.

All of my siblings and myself were born at home

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I don't know about other women but I did not mysteriously "end up pregnant"

Something on her part contributed to another child.

[/quote']

I can't see that Gail said anything about it being "mysterious." She simply said a woman ended up single and pregnant due to an impropriety on her husband's part. It sounds like the impropriety is what led to her become single.

That was exactly what I said. The baby was the father's, but to protect the children from the father the mother split from him. This happened early in the last pregnancy. It was a big burden for her but one of those things.

The pregnancy was not due to an impropriety but the split was.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

That was exactly what I said. The baby was the father's, but to protect the children from the father the mother split from him. This happened early in the last pregnancy. It was a big burden for her but one of those things.

The pregnancy was not due to an impropriety but the split was.

If she was not working welfare would have given her all the care and hospital she needed. If her husband failed to support, the county she lived in would have gone after him.

Even with a job as long as it did not pay enough to provide for this there is more than one remedy available.

Catholic charities does an outstanding job. There are others besides the state help available.

[lazarus]

5.What is the free country you are talking about?

The only one I know is the US for a time yet. Bit by bit that will cease to be true

L.O.L.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

5.What is the free country you are talking about?

The only one I know is the US for a time yet. Bit by bit that will cease to be true

L.O.L.

It is unfortunate if you as an american citizen? have been deprived of thw ability to worship how and where you please, raise and educate your children,purhcase what you can afford to and generally live without civil or federal authorities bothering you.You can condemn anyone publically you feel like even a republican president.

Maybe I misunderstood your post as you didn't really say what you thought was funny.Maybe what you meant is that you were the shark circling.

[lazarus]

It is unfortunate if you as an american citizen? have been deprived of thw ability to worship how and where you please, raise and educate your children,purhcase what you can afford to and generally live without civil or federal authorities bothering you.You can condemn anyone publically you feel like even a republican president.

I've lived in the UK and all of the above describes the freedoms I enjoyed there. I did laugh out loud when I though you "said" that the US was the only country that had freedom. Maybe that's not what you meant.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

It is unfortunate if you as an american citizen? have been deprived of thw ability to worship how and where you please, raise and educate your children,purhcase what you can afford to and generally live without civil or federal authorities bothering you.You can condemn anyone publically you feel like even a republican president.

I've lived in the UK and all of the above describes the freedoms I enjoyed there. I did laugh out loud when I though you "said" that the US was the only country that had freedom. Maybe that's not what you meant.

The US is the only country I know that has the freedoms I have always enjoyed all my life.

[Neil D]

What countrys have you lived in, Bonnie?

[bonnie]

What countrys have you lived in, Bonnie?

I said "the US is the only country I know" That is not a claim to have lived in any other country.

Let me say it again and see if you need further explanation

The US is the only country I know. It is where the freedoms I have always enjoyed are provided and protected. It will soon cease

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

What countrys have you lived in, Bonnie?

I said "the US is the only country I know" That is not a claim to have lived in any other country.

Let me say it again and see if you need further explanation

The US is the only country I know. It is where the freedoms I have always enjoyed are provided and protected. It will soon cease

I can accept that the US is what you know but you would accept that there are other countries in the world that share the same freedoms that America has. Wouldn't you?

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I said "the US is the only country I know" That is not a claim to have lived in any other country.

Let me say it again and see if you need further explanation

The US is the only country I know. It is where the freedoms I have always enjoyed are provided and protected. It will soon cease

[/quote']

I can accept that the US is what you know but you would accept that there are other countries in the world that share the same freedoms that America has. Wouldn't you?

I am sure there are countries are free now. I really don't care as there is nothing I can do about it if they are not.

I care what happens here. Here is where I live and have to live under this president that is slowly but surely taking more and more power and rights a president should not have. All in the interests of fairness.

The taking money from me and putting it in your pocket is not fair. Fair is not possible in terms of all being taken care of. Fair has never succeeded and won't.

One of us will not be treated fairly. If I work as hard as I can and you don't,nothing fair about it. If I make more money than you even if you work hard, and you take it from me,not fair.

Giving continual hand outs with my money is not fair to me and in reality not fair to the one receiving. A hand up should be offered,a hand out keeps the hand out as long as there is something to take.

I only know bit by bit freedom in this country will occur. May be there are SDA's that do not believe that. I do.

We will lose it no matter what we do,but championing the one that may very well cause it or is causing it is quite another.

I believe Obama is a socialist at the best. I believe him to be a very dangerous man to the freedoms of the US

[Woody]

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I believe Obama is a socialist at the best. I believe him to be a very dangerous man to the freedoms of the US

[Ellen]

Canada has become a "socialist" ountry and we have had so much benefit from it. Of course there are things we don't approve of, but most of them don't cost us money. If there is a law that allows abortions that doesn't make any of us actually have one, also the gay rights issue.

A person I know had to have a kidney removed, money would have been a big factor if we didn't have socialized medicine. As it was the operaiton was prompt and results couldn't be better. The same for hip replacements and heart surgery.

People I know had to go on disability allowance. By not begging or going without necessities our tax dollars have made their lives dignified and in a way independent. The same applies to welfare.

It doesn't actually cost us that much because if they didn't receive social help it would have to be another costly solution to the problem of the poor.

[bonnie]

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canada has become a "socialist" ountry and we have had so much benefit from it. Of course there are things we don't approve of, but most of them don't cost us money. If there is a law that allows abortions that doesn't make any of us actually have one, also the gay rights issue.

Abortion,if you don't mind paying for it good for you.

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A person I know had to have a kidney removed, money would have been a big factor if we didn't have socialized medicine. As it was the operaiton was prompt and results couldn't be better. The same for hip replacements and heart surgery.

Are you somehow under the impression that we do not have kidney transplants in a timely fashion or hip replacement surgery or heart surgery.

Those are procedures that we have available as well. It does not take a socialized country to have that. Chances are any new,better or high tech procedure to make it more effective or safer came from the US.

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People I know had to go on disability allowance. By not begging or going without necessities our tax dollars have made their lives dignified and in a way independent. The same applies to welfare.

I am well acquainted with disability allowance. We have that here as well. My husband has been on disability for sometime.

We have never had to beg or go without. We are very independent. The US also has welfare. Covers many. Many that could work but Obama and his stimulus now says we can not expect them to work after five years on welfare

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It doesn't actually cost us that much because if they didn't receive social help it would have to be another costly solution to the problem of the poor.

I assume there is no waiting for needed tests,and those that come from canada to get it are not telling the truth.

What is it you as a socialist Canadian think we need to do to catch up with canada?

Welfare- consists of subsidized housing,free medical care,food stamps.

WIC- diapers and formula and other necessities for working moms that need it.

Mentally handicapped-state help,medicad,subsidized housing and free medical care.

Energy needs. Programs for many to help pay. Especially senior citizens that are on fixed income receive help. They can pay as little as 13.00 for heat in the winter.

Drug costs not covered by insurance- Call the help line that each drug company has. They greatly reduce or eliminate the cost.

Need emergency medical and no insurance. Hospitals have a certain amount allowed for those unable to pay.

Senior housing that has a very low cost,based on your ability to pay.

Many Dr's will take medicare payment only if seniors do not have supplement.Meals on wheels delivered to seniors living alone and rely on someone for food.

Regardless of your ability to pay,those that require nursing home care receive same care as those that can pay out of pocket.

Allowing for those that fall thru the cracks which I know you have as well,what do we need to "socialize"

[Gail]

I don't see that Ellen was saying you needed to socialize anything.

What I get from her post is that in her experience she is happy with the care that was provided to her and those she knows.

[bonnie]

I don't see that Ellen was saying you needed to socialize anything.

What I get from her post is that in her experience she is happy with the care that was provided to her and those she knows.

I understood what Ellen was saying. She is happy because of what a socialized country offered her and listed examples.

I listed examples of what I know we have in a unsocialized country and what we might be missing as compared to what she is happy with

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

What countrys have you lived in, Bonnie?

I said "the US is the only country I know" That is not a claim to have lived in any other country. Let me say it again and see if you need further explanation

The US is the only country I know. It is where the freedoms I have always enjoyed are provided and protected. It will soon cease

[bonnie]

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What prompted the question was the comment that this is the only country that you know....It's been a while, but I know Korea, as I have lived there for 1 year....Interesting place, for a democracy....they have socialized medicine, in case you didn't know...and fiercely democratic.....Japan and England have social economies....and the US allied with they during WW2. And as Ellen has said, Cananda is part of the former English empire and has strong ties to England. Again, a socialize medicine...

What prompted the answer is the US is the country that concerns me at the moment.

Socialized medicine may be this fond hope for some that wants the government to pay,but many do not.

When my husband was having tests at Abbott-Northwestern there were canadians being tested. Reason-socialized medicine and a long waiting list to get what was needed.

We have extended family members that live in canada.

Guess where they come when possible because of waiting list. This is not a surprise from any other country,it will be here

Tell me when this takes place here under socialized medicine,where will we go?

Tell me what country will be the leader in new procedure's,drugs and treatment?

[qoute]These countrys have open societys...No monarchys that rule and silences free speach. Each of these countrys are open and willing to tolerate speach against the current goverment...Each of these countrys support all our freedoms...they just voice it a bit different...These countrys are open societys, they just voice all your freedoms a bit differently...

[Neil D]

The US has always been based on a capitalistic society.

Many like to equate that with greed. It is not that simple.

You can not exercise any type of tryanny,soft or hard on capitalists. You cannot take their freedoms until you control the economy.

How others voice "my freedoms" is immaterial. Other countries,world wide will become less and less free as time gos on. Freedom in america is what I want voiced,voiced in the way we always have.

you are correct in that the ecomonics and practicalites of healthcare medicine "is not that simple".

We ,in the healthcare industry, have known that it has been broken since the inception of Medicare back in the 60's. The US has for many years continued in ONE PATH, taking the burden off insurance companys with the addition of medicare, then allowing third party payers to come between dr and patient. Now, the cost of health care to the patient is so far out of reach that jobs are not offering it as part of the compensation package. It is affecting the costs of good and services that we produce, both at home and abroad. Other countrys are sucessfully competeing against us due to our higher costs, which thier leadership, having relieving their companys the cost of healthcare.

If you think that healthcare, like manufacturing, is supposedly a profitable business, let me assure you, it is not. You can not apply the prinicples of manufacturing health to a human being....They don't work like a widget. Politicians have tried for the last 30 years....but it is not to be...people don't respond like widgets do. They are, after all, not widgets...but rather people.

Because America did not apply the principles of social medicine to a capitalistic society back in the 60's, we have lost freedoms. We have lost the ability to communicate to the doctor and tell him of our complaints without the insurance company coming in and telling us that it is not cost effective to do a procedure that would make the indiviudal productive again. We have lost the ability to do preventivative medicine rather than reactive medicine. We are more interested in the rights of those who smoke rather than preventing the creation of new smokers. The results are that we currently spend a lot of money on those emphasymic patients and those who have cancer from smoking...IOWS, what you call "freedoms" is really self inflicted wounds...only the infliction takes on a very slow motion picture and takes 20-40 years before the bullet goes thru the lungs and heart and kidneys and brain. Socialized medicine would, at least, prevent new smokers from being relaized in that it would tax the smoking to death. People would simply quit due to ecomonics.

But it appears, Bonnie, that the freedoms that you want, are the freedoms to kill yourself slowly....

[bonnie]

Quote:

you are correct in that the ecomonics and practicalites of healthcare medicine "is not that simple".

We ,in the healthcare industry, have known that it has been broken since the inception of Medicare back in the 60's. The US has for many years continued in ONE PATH, taking the burden off insurance companys with the addition of medicare, then allowing third party payers to come between dr and patient. Now, the cost of health care to the patient is so far out of reach that jobs are not offering it as part of the compensation package. It is affecting the costs of good and services that we produce, both at home and abroad. Other countrys are sucessfully competeing against us due to our higher costs, which thier leadership, having relieving their companys the cost of healthcare.

I have never quite understood why an employer was responsible form my health care. Other countries are not competing against in the health care field. They don't need to as long as the US does the bulk of research and getting new drugs to market.

The miliions and millions of dollars on research is not shared by competing countries so there is no competition.

We certainly were never wealthy but no thrid party payer has come between our Dr and ourselves. At least not to the point I had to go to canada or some other socialized country to get timely needed tests.

Of course medicare was broken before it started. It was government run. Insisting that those that did not want it took it on their time table or were penalized for the rest of their lives when and if they did sign up

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If you think that healthcare, like manufacturing, is supposedly a profitable business, let me assure you, it is not. You can not apply the prinicples of manufacturing health to a human being....They don't work like a widget. Politicians have tried for the last 30 years....but it is not to be...people don't respond like widgets do. They are, after all, not widgets...but rather people.

Truly amazing logic. The health care field certainly can and is profitable. It has to remain profitable if research and new and better procedures are to continue. While you refer to as "we in the health care field" as giving you a certain expertise it doesn't square with what others say. Besides the "we" I believe in is a large number of health care workers in our family. Two sons that work[administrators] in the nursing home field,one son a nurse,a third son now going to school to become a nurse, a DIL is a nurse. Grandson will graduate this year as a RN

My mother was a nurse,two cousins as Dr and one that taught nursing.

One of my sons is vice president of a large nursing home corporation. He has received awards for just what you say is not profitable while seeing to the quality care of the residents of many nursing homes. If he does not provide prudent and responsible fiscal results,his bonus reflects that or he is dismissed.

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pinciples of social medicine to a capitalistic society back in the 60's, we have lost freedoms. We have lost the ability to communicate to the doctor and tell him of our complaints without the insurance company coming in and telling us that it is not cost effective to do a procedure that would make the indiviudal productive again

Truly,truly amazing. I have always been able to communicate with our DR without say so from the insurance company.

Obviously they are not big on new or experimental but aside from that insurance coverage does pay most of the way.Pays for our visits and knows nothing of our conversations. The majority of the time nothing is said to restrict tests. When it is our DR prevails

.

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We have lost the ability to do preventivative medicine rather than reactive medicine. We are more interested in the rights of those who smoke rather than preventing the creation of new smokers.

Amazing

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The results are that we currently spend a lot of money on those emphasymic patients and those who have cancer from smoking...IOWS, what you call "freedoms" is really self inflicted wounds...only the infliction takes on a very slow motion picture and takes 20-40 years before the bullet goes thru the lungs and heart and kidneys and brain. Socialized medicine would, at least, prevent new smokers from being relaized in that it would tax the smoking to death. People would simply quit due to ecomonics.

This is one that is really tough to even take seriously.

Are you saying that in countries with socialized medicine there aren't any new smokers?

That would certainly be the way to go then,except that is not accurate.

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But it appears, Bonnie, that the freedoms that you want, are the freedoms to kill yourself slowly....

I will try the mental gymnastics this one requires.

I enjoy my life and have no intention of killing myself slowly or otherwise. Not sure you would know how I am killing myself slowly.

I am free and encouraged to be preventative in that. I eat right for the most part,keep physically active,I am not overweight and do not have any chonic health problems. I cam still play volley ball and kick ball with my grandchildren.

Which freedom I enjoy do you believe is slowly killing me.

Which preventative health care am I banned from having.

Or do you mean God Forbid I should pay for preventative treatment I may need.

[Neil D]

Quote:

you are correct in that the ecomonics and practicalites of healthcare medicine "is not that simple".

We ,in the healthcare industry, have known that it has been broken since the inception of Medicare back in the 60's. The US has for many years continued in ONE PATH, taking the burden off insurance companys with the addition of medicare, then allowing third party payers to come between dr and patient. Now, the cost of health care to the patient is so far out of reach that jobs are not offering it as part of the compensation package. It is affecting the costs of good and services that we produce, both at home and abroad. Other countrys are sucessfully competeing against us due to our higher costs, which thier leadership, having relieving their companys the cost of healthcare.

I have never quite understood why an employer was responsible form my health care.

[Woody]

Some people really enjoy gymnastics.

[bonnie]

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The employer, if he wants to be responsible for his employees, will provide health care insurance. However, it costs him a lot to do so. Most employers are trying to be responsible and some are just not able. I have never understood the illogic in placing the "responsiblity of healthcare" on the employeer, when it is clearly the employer trying to provide good benefits...Why are you thinking so?

I do not know why a employer is responsible for my health care. He is responsible for a fair wage for a job well done.

He is responsible for safe working conditions.Why the burden has been put on the employer as if that is his responsibility.

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This is the second time that I have heard this from you. What you don't realize is that the European countries have some pretty good studies coming out of them as well. Of course, American arrogance is such that we have to repeat everything before we can accept thier findings...We can not build upon already good research....

After the studies we need the product or equipment to put it into practise. I assume there is a reason why people come to the US instead of staying in their own country.The fact that the tests my husband was having could only be done at that time here and the qualifications for the Dr's doing so was here. I am not sure where most of the patients come from but I know they come from Canada for a fact and they come because what they need is not readily available to them in their own country.May be american arrogance to you,but I hope they keep it up and that continues to benefit.

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have you or your family had elective surgury? did you have to get preapproval? What about braces? How about any type of surgury, elective or required? There are emergency situtuations now where the patient is unconscious and PREAPROVAL precesures are required before they get emergency treatment. These are requirements of insurances. They are currently happening.

Emergency surgery will be done without prior insurance approval. I had required surgery a few years ago.

I was semi-conscious when my husband got me to ER. Very little I remember but was trying to explain to my husband what he needed for insurance info. My husband has had several strokes and does not cope well with something like that and does not even know who the insurance carrier is.

I do remember the medical staff telling him not to be concerned that was not important at that time. I was transferred to a larger hospital not a hint of concern over insurance or permission from anyone besides my family.

This was not a cheap procedure,in and out.

Pay for your own braces. The government is not responsible neither is the insurance unless that is specified in coverage.

My sons all have had braces for their children. So do as they do.Work out a payment plan and get them

I don't get where we became such a country of give me,give me,take care of me.

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As for medicare being broken before it started, you mis-understand. The insurance companys could not control costs before medicare. Medicare was a bandage that now is concidered as part of the solution. It is not and never has been a solution. It only slowed the enevitable...As what we have now, a broken system

Insurance companies cannot control costs now. They certainly didn't control the whopping bill I gave them

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If you think that healthcare, like manufacturing, is supposedly a profitable business, let me assure you, it is not. You can not apply the prinicples of manufacturing health to a human being....They don't work like a widget. Politicians have tried for the last 30 years....but it is not to be...people don't respond like widgets do. They are, after all, not widgets...but rather people.

Excuse me but who said anything about manufacturing health?

When I our last child or any of them was born,nobody was required to manufacture health. They were responsible for giving the cost of my care that was covered to hospital and DR.

My husbands strokes,no manufactured health,just insurance company pay the bill.

My mother died of a brain tumor. Very,very expensive. In terms of payment the insurance company and medicare took a bath on her. Not one quibble about her care. She had everything we needed to make her last few weeks pain free and comfortable.

That is not manufactured care or health.

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I never meant to convey that all areas of healthcare is not profitable...Many areas, like the ER and NICU, are losing departments, and yet are high profile because of who you are taking care of. And perhaps, my wording was a bit overstated. But the general priinciples of treating people like widgets , as in manufacturing, are valid and dont work.

This simply makes no sense whatsoever. We have at times run across some Dr's and health care providers that I would hesitate to have take care of my dog.

Most however have been extremely professional,very dedicated,and leaving no stone unturned.

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And treating those people like widgets do certainly increase costs. Healthcare has gotten around those widget principles and are currently placing human healing principles in place.

I guess if you were treated like a widget it would be wise to find another DR.

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I stand by this statement. Your doctor can not charge the insurance company without making sure that all his paperwork is correct and that he gets paid the highest amount for what he can document.

Good,I am glad they are not paid without proper documentation.

With the years of schooling and many times a grueling schedule I would expect him to charge the max if possible.

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IOWs, he MAY "fudge" his paper work abit to be able to charge the highest amount that he can. For example, if you came in for a tubal abortion, he might be able to charge for that accordingly...But if he is able to recieve a higher price for a "D & C" which also involves an abortion proceedure, and recieve more money for it, he will charge the insurance for the D & C. If the documentation is the same, and you can not prove otherwise.

"he may" is not real conclusive. Are there abuses? Of course. Are there abuses in every country of the world,even with socialized medicine. Yes

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Another example, pt with trachs get charged for a continous aeresol. That's one charge. If they need oxygen, they get charged for the higher of the two charges, in this case Oxygen. It's been documented that he needed 02, and it's a higher charge. Can't charge for both though... That is what the insurance people demand. You may not see this, but I asuure you that it's there..

Part of this is to recoup where you can as we are so busy offering free to welfare recipients and illegal aliens.

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Perhaps I was not clear. Smoking is a very expensive luxury. No only does the prespective patient pay for all the cigarettes, but when he does become affected, he starts paying for all the extra doctor visits, the hospitalizations, and the treatments, both at home and in the hospital. As he slowly dies [this can take up to 10-20 years], he slowly looses his breath, clogs up with phlegm and causes huge physicalogical changes in the later stages of his disease, ie left sided heart failure, emphsymic lung changes, he dies from a slow insideous demise. He is subject during those last years to many more doctor visits, prescriptions that cost huge amounts of money.

So> Has nothing to do with freedoms and all to do with personal behavior. Most of us understand that the risk of abuse in freedoms can be high.

What is it you would suggest we do with a patient like this.

I have a young neighbor morbidly obese. Has had surgery on the taxpayer dime and is now gaining weight again.

Does she deserve it?NO. But she costs taxpayers a pretty penny and will for years to come.

Has a baby that she "it would be neat to have a baby, and she thinks bi-racial babies are so cute. So she made sure to have a bi-racial baby. Personal behavior again. I cannot correct her personal behavior by limiting her freedoms to behave as she does. However we could make it more likely by making her responsible for the cost.

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While socialized medicine would take that individual's expenses away, I envision goverment also sending out programs educating people, specifically young people, to avoid smoking...graphically showing how cigarettes work from the hooking of the smoker, to the dying of the emphseymic....Current systems to quit smoking are not working....

Why would I want to take their expenses away and telling them upfront,go ahead,you are not responsible.

There will be no system that works to stop smoking. Not sure where you live but they have programs here,in the schools and in the hospitals and they get pretty graphic. Out of the meeting and grab a cigarette.