Moderators Bravus Posted April 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 4, 2009 This post could probably have gone in the World Affairs forum, since it's not making an overtly political point, and some of the phenomena I'm remarking on have occurred there as well. Some have come up in Town Hall too. Reading these three fora in the last few weeks has been flabbergasting. It's not even confined to members of any particular political persuasion - everyone seems to have caught the disease. What I'm talking about is a complete disregard for truth and evidence. I get accused of being a postmodernist and relativist around here sometimes - which is odd, because I am mostly posting about truth, suggesting that I do at least believe it exists and is something valuable and to be sought. There are a plethora of examples, from the claims of links between Islam and Catholicism, to counterfactuals about the president's place of birth, to that very obviously fake 'UN' web site, to dreams and portents, to claims about Darwin and Mesmer, and on and on. The response ends up being 'don't confuse me with the evidence, I think what I think and it has been confirmed by dodgy web sites and other people who think the same'. We all have our beliefs and ideas and obsessions, but I continue to believe that truth is valuable and seeking the truth is valuable - and that if someting backs up my opinion, but is shown to be fatally flawed, the honourable and sensible thing to do is discard that evidence and look for better evidence. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I have not been reading here as much lately because my job has picked up and with my pending relocation to Africa, I have been doing a lot of preparation. That said, I agree there has been a lot of goofy threads based on highly questionable information. I am not sure what to do with that other than make a post in such threads stating such and then just leave the thread alone. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionlady Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I used to think most comspiracy theories were all nonsense. But to just believe that without checking into them (and I am not advocating checking into all conspiracy theories!) may also be denying truth. It goes both ways. I have my pet conspiracy theories that are just that--theories. (I'm not going to tell you about them, because you would probably think that I am crazy.) I have some evidence and that is partly why I believe them. I have checked out some of the opposing views, but have not been convinced. Until I have proof-either way, they will remain theories. But conspiracies do exist! The one I will mention is the one that Satan is perpetrating on humankind. That one is the subject of the Great Controversy. For thousands of years he has been trying is many, many ways to destroy the truth about God's character. But Bravus, to the point you were making...I agree. Truth must always be sought and not disregarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Quote: But conspiracies do exist! He has worked deliberately and systematically, and with marvelous success, leading vast multitudes to accept his version of the great controversy which has been so long in progress. For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated, and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy his people, and take possession of the city of God, the arch-deceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause. The Great Controversy (1888), page 669, paragraph 3 Quote: I used to think most comspiracy theories were all nonsense.But to just believe that without checking into them (and I am not advocating checking into all conspiracy theories!) may also be denying truth. It goes both ways. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Well I disagree. Understanding the conspiracy only confirms our prophetic heritage and understanding. The problem we have right now in Adventism is the boy who cried wolf syndrome. People no longer believe it and are living their life like Jesus will return soon. They are caught up in the cares of this world. My friends who understand the conspiracy theories and are restudying the Adventist message are committing their life to God. I have even seen some rich people forsake the worldly things as the realization that Jesus is indeed near. These conspiracy plans can only be fully understood with Adventist doctrine. Many conspiracy people have pieces to the puzzle but only when you apply the mark of the beast, the whore of Babylon, pre-advent judgment, lamb like beast and others will the whole picture be seen. It is amazing to me how many Adventist refuse to look at this. I think people are afraid and so they are in denial. Many may feel they are to smart to fall for this. Jesus wants us to know when he will come. Most importantly He wants us to warn the world. That's hat we are called to do. I can immediately strike up a conversation with any young person and establish repore and plant the seeds they have never heard before. Thousands are studying our message because God has wakened them up though conspiracy messages. Walter Vieth will supplant Findley, Bachelor and all others. That's my prediction. Me and my friends are evangelizing like never before. We have prayed for this time. Friends, He is coming soon. You can deny it but it won't change His coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionlady Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I believe that many people become so focused on the conspiracy theories that they lose sight of Jesus. That happens in many other areas also: the Sabbath, EG White, the health message, etc. Each of these things are good, but not to the extreme that we lose sight of Jesus. So the answer, I believe, is balance. Yes, definitely, keep your eyes on Jesus. But if we just accept things told us, we may be drawn into a conspiracy. How many millions of people have been drawn into Satan's conspiracy of giving a false view of God's character? They thought they were just looking at Jesus. So I think we need to be aware of conspiracy theories, or we may find that we have believed the false teachings of the master conspirator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I would go further than that. We need to understand these things so we will not be deceived. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Joe, Remember the FBI example for finding counterfits? You study the origional. You become so familiar with the origional, that when the counterfit comes, you can see it right away. You don't study counterfits because they are too numerous to watch out for....but if you study the origional, when the counterfit comes, you know it. Same with the bible...You study Jesus...You become familiar with Jesus...when the counterfit comes, you know....You dont study the theories of prophecys, nor the writings of others...You just study the bible and find the origional prophecy on how to improve your relationship with Jesus...The rest of that stuff...is just stuff.. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 5, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted April 5, 2009 Joe, the other point is that if we start using these conspiracy theory ideas (and, please note, although the thread has moved that way I never used the word or concept of conspiracy in the thread-starting post) to support the fulfiment of prophecy, that places a very high standard on us in terms of fact-checking. If we publish lies and mistakes as fulfilment of prophecy, we bring prophecy itself into disrepute. That 'UN Executive Council' web site is complete nonsense - publicity for a book. You need to be able to acknowledge a mistake and repudiate information that turns out to be false, rather than to cling onto it and make qualifications. Same with Walter Vieth - people are picking and choosing from his ideas, rejecting some and embracing others. If there's error mixed with the truth, that's not a good sign. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 >>...everyone seems to have caught the disease.<< It was March! the season for madness – the March Hare, the Mad Hatter, the jasds, etc... >>What I'm talking about is a complete disregard for truth and evidence.<< It’s the Political Forum – where all is in flux -‘precipitating’, as it were :-) >>...to counterfactuals about the president's place of birth,<< Ahh, the provenance herein is mine... Okay, Obugabe tricks hisself out as the ‘candidate of transparency’ – and alla his papers and documents become opaque. Wha’s wid dat? There is a stink in Denmark and it has manifested as, seemingly, franchised within the environs of the current POTUS and claque. I simply find a certain High Strangeness to the fact that immediately after Obugabe hies hisself to thems places of Mai Tais and paper umbrellas to visit his grammum – his purported ‘birth certificate’ is found tah be sealed by the powers that be. Forget the fact that his paternal Kenyan grammum (as forwarded by, among many, a news source having no skin in the game; that is, israelenews) bragged on her grandson becoming President of the United States, stating that she witnessed his birth in Kenya (as well did his half-brother and half-sister); forget the fact that he used a passport other than that of these United States to enter Pakistan; forget the fact that photos of his application for entrance into an Indonesian school states that he was an Indonesian citizen; forget the fact that no one can access his records at places such as Harvard, Columbia, and Chicago (I mean, why are the pertinent facts cloaked in mystery?); and forget... well, forget the lipstick, we’ve got ourselves a pig in a poke where Obugabe is concerned... >>...to claims about Darwin and Mesmer, and on and on.<< Pixie sparkle, unicorns, etc, yes? It was the madness that attends the month of March! >>We all have our beliefs and ideas and obsessions, but I continue to believe that truth is valuable and seeking the truth is valuable - and that if someting backs up my opinion, but is shown to be fatally flawed, the honourable and sensible thing to do is discard that evidence and look for better evidence.<< Okay, no offense, but curiosity prompts – how is it that one who seemingly is acquainted with, at least, the search for truths – ends up a Socialist Democrat? or is it that one is first a Socialist Democrat and – thereafter seeks after the justifying formulae, as it were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 “Today, five US banks, according to data in the just-released Federal Office of Comptroller of the Currency's Quarterly Report on Bank Trading and Derivatives Activity, hold 96% of all US bank derivatives positions in terms of nominal values, and an eye-popping 81% of the total net credit risk exposure in event of default. The top three are, in declining order of importance: JPMorgan Chase, which holds a staggering $88 trillion in derivatives; Bank of America with $38 trillion, and Citibank with $32 trillion. Number four in the derivatives sweepstakes is Goldman Sachs, with a mere $30 trillion in derivatives; number five, the merged Wells Fargo-Wachovia Bank, drops dramatically in size to $5 trillion. Number six, Britain's HSBC Bank USA, has $3.7 trillion. [...] The government bailout of AIG, at more than $180 billion so far, has primarily gone to pay off AIG's credit default swap obligations to counterparty gamblers Goldman Sachs, Citibank, JP Morgan Chase and Bank of America, the banks who believe they are "too big to fail". In effect, these institutions today believe they are so large that they can dictate the policy of the federal government. Some have called it a bankers' coup d'etat. ...” [ed.jasd] In effect, these institutions today believe they are so large that they can dictate the policy of the federal government. Some have called it a bankers' coup d'etat. ...” Read: corporate coup d’Etat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I could not imagine any posts that would more perfectly illustrate that to which Bravus was referring than the two posts from jasd above. More perfect examples you could not wish for. Well done, sir! Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Quote: ..but as christians and especially S.D.A. christianswe need to be into the bible....these conspiracy theories true or false is a way of getting us side tracked..... TU TU TU TU TU Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 >>I could not imagine any posts that would more perfectly illustrate that to which Bravus was referring than the two posts from jasd above. More perfect examples you could not wish for.<< 'Quotables' from them thars far and away parts, yes? Outback and dog’s breakfasts, yes? >>Well done, sir!<< Thank-you! It is my pleasure. However, methinks, my immediately above posts may require parsing for the benefit of the obtuse, mebbe? Anytheways, don’t y’all be takin’ yourselves so seriously..., y’hear!? Okay, so having gotten the necessaries aside – and noting that you excel with popups as ‘dog’s breakfasts’, I’d like to see you contribute something more reflecting your own gravitas – that is, reflections of a more substantial nature – oh, mebbe, even the inclusion of (non)factuals. I believe we’d all benefit from your participation – whether it is one measured or no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Twofer: jasd 12:12 You seem to do well enough at reading the signs of the weather; try those of Zeitgeist. :-o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morning Glory Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Neil, Thank you for your insight and comment. Very timely and great advice. Morning Glory Quote Kindness is the oil that takes the friction out of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 >>...nothing better than studying the truth!!!<< Indeed; however to what purpose – if they are not properly discerned? As far as it may pertain to ‘conspiracy’, let’s look at a for example: “Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you:” --Jesus Christ Why would “they” do so? Who are the “they” referenced? Where from will “they” deliver you? Where will “they” deliver you? ...to what purpose? This all is without ‘them’ conspiring? Even though the above is Writ together with an expositive exercise – is it or is it not relevant to the student of Holy Writ? Why? Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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