Stan Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 A good portion of the comments in this political forum here embarrass me as an Adventist. I have limited the viewing of these so the folks just visiting cannot view this forum. If I have done this correct, only full members can post here. IF YOU are going to get involved in this, do not come whining to me if others have a strongly different view. Why some are so blinding by their infallible political affiliation amazes me. The biting and barking is pathetic. I really wonder if inspirational and up lifting posts, that are non political, are even capable of some. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!! Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 7, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 7, 2009 People should "pm" the "offender" directly rather than expecting the "Pastor" to deal with it! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Quote: IF YOU are going to get involved in this, do not come whining to me if others have a strongly different view. Personally I find no problem with different views. But, what should not be allowed is attacking the poster instead of the views. And that is very easy to see when it happens. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 here is the situation, almost everyone here cross the line, who can see they are? Only 1 has admitted that. Is there any other one that says they cross the line? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2009 I do. I try not to. I try to make amends. I try to take breaks. I try to ignore people. Perhaps I need to listen to Yoda more. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Ugh. That depends .... what line would ye be talkin' about. Please define it. If people are going to confess .... they need to know what they are confessin' to. Having completed my confession under my own terms (see the lurkers thread) .... I have to wonder what this confession entails? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 A good portion of the comments in this political forum here embarrass me as an Adventist. I have limited the viewing of these so the folks just visiting cannot view this forum. If I have done this correct, only full members can post here. IF YOU are going to get involved in this, do not come whining to me if others have a strongly different view. Why some are so blinding by their infallible political affiliation amazes me. The biting and barking is pathetic. I really wonder if inspirational and up lifting posts, that are non political, are even capable of some. PLEASE PROOF ME WRONG!!! I could agree Stan. Even people's views that I agree with, I have at times been embarassed at the way it seems they have been rude or crude in their manner of expressing the views. I think that if people could "attack" policies instead of "people" it would be a start. I think, for instance, that the office of the president deserves respect even if I vehemitly disagree with a president or his party. I could post some pretty harsh things about curent or past presidents, but I don't think it gains us anything. Issues need to be discussed without mud-slinging. Not sure it is possible when there are such strong opinions. I see it as being like this...in a marriage there are times when one spouse will "bait the other" in order to get a "rise out of them" and begin a "fight" however, if the other spouse doesn't buy into it and is simply silent or sticks to the topic and ignores the personal jab....then real discussion can take place regarding the issue, or at least it will defuse a fight because a person can't fight with themselves. Just my 2 cents...which with this recession is probably worth in the negative numbers. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2009 I do think the 'attacking the topic not the person' thing is sometimes used as a dodge too, though. I guess semantically saying 'your opinion is stupid' is different from saying 'you're stupid'... but neither is well calculated to show respect or build relationship. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I am also not going to try and convince the infallible that they are coming across rude. So far, once again, Bravus is the only one who can admit he errors on the way he posts in this forums sometimes.. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted April 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2009 Is there any other one that says they cross the line? I most certainly do, and of course I shouldn't....... mainly because I'm a Pastor. (tic) Usually, I've been able to fix things with a PM conversation and that's why I said folks should at the very least try to express their upset to the person rather than to bring a third party into it at the beginning. My guess is that if someone was directly confronted by the hurt individual then things would get solved much more quickly and effectively. Stan can I humbly suggest that when presented with a complaint your first question should "be have you PM'd the person your complaining about?". Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Quote: Is there any other one that says they cross the line? I have to admit that I struggled with my strongest worded post before I actually submitted it. I weighed whether I had crossed the line and whether I would regret saying what I said after a day or two. Nope: The poster that called me a racist was a moron, so I'm good! I enjoy a rousing discussion but have lost interest in the "well, what about this?, what about that?", those pesky deflecting responses to specific issues. Sticking to specifics in a thread make for the best challenging debates. It finally hit me that many times a post (mine included) will address multiple issues which makes it very difficult to respond to each point without spending gobs of time copying, pasting, researching, pontificating, etc. I'm not sure how to improve on that, but it can really get one bogged down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Quote: "Stan can I humbly suggest that when presented with a complaint your first question should "be have you PM'd the person your complaining about?". A BIG hearty AMEN to that. But then I have been preaching that for several years here and it has fallen on deaf ears. Oh well. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I certainly crossed the line during my first few years on this forum. Of course I was assuming that if others could give it they could take it. I gave a lot of others grief over political issues and took a lot of grief from them. It didn't bother me or ruffle my feathers so I just rolled with it. I was involved with debate in high school and pretty much followed the same rules of debate here that had been established in high school. So while I crossed the line of what is normally considered good behavior in civil disagreements, I don't think I crossed the line of what would be allowed in high school debate. Once I figured out that most people do not come here to "debate" I changed my style of posting. I stopped addressing people directly. I focus on issues and not people. Some people choose to "marry" themselves to a political position so when I "attack" a position they feel like I am attacking them. I don't see how I can get around that. People have the right to change political positions. I don't marry anyone to a given position or assume they are married. I try to address the issues, not the people espousing them. I don't know if I have crossed the line of good behavior in civil debates over the past few years but I have felt uneasy about some posts that I have made so if I haven't crossed that line I have come dangerously close to it. Sometimes it is hard to figure out the best way to disagree with another person's viewpoint without insulting or degrading that person - especially on a topic that a person is passionate about. I try, sometimes more than others, to focus on disagreeing with viewpoints or positions. Obviously saying "you are a hypocrite" is crossing the line. Saying "that position is hypocritical" is not saying the same thing although the other poster may feel it is the same thing and feelings can become their reality. But somehow there has to be a civil way of disagreeing. If I watch a news commentary, listen to a radio talk show or read a political blog and somehow become convinced of a certain political opinion, I have been "sold" that opinion. That is, someone else has convinced me of it. If I then come here and say, "I believe XYZ is the way it should be." Another poster should be able to disagree by saying "I think XYZ completely ignores the reality of ABC" without me taking personal offense. It is like me buying a bad car and someone coming to me later and telling me, you bought a bad car. They are not insulting me, they are insulting the car. Political debates are going to get hot. That is a given. I see now way around that. Why some people that can't stand the heat insist on staying in the kitchen is beyond me. If politics upsets you - DON'T COME INTO THIS SECTION. If you can handle people disagreeing with your opinions - DON'T POST YOUR OPINIONS HERE. ************************************************************************ As far as making this section visible to paying members only. That is great. I think political threads posted in Townhall should still be moved here. However when that is done, it might be good to note that the thread has been moved to the Politics Forum which is only visible to paying members Some may actually subscribe to C/A just to have access to this political section. I don't know of anywhere else where Adventists discuss political issues so openly and freely as we do here. This is not something that is available anywhere else. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 This forum is mild in comparison to some of the discussion on political news items on the news services where the public can comment on the news. Political comments are always heated. I would not take offense Stan. All you have done is that now the non members will now take political discussion to the town hall. Politics affects us all. We have to vent somewhere. If not on the politcal area then in town hall. Not all are paying members. Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 If I have done the permission correct, all members should be able to post, if not please pm me and I will try to fix that again.. Good Points have been made by a lot of people. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGuy Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 If I have done the permission correct, all members should be able to post, if not please pm me and I will try to fix that again.. Good Points have been made by a lot of people. By members do you mean all members or only PAYING members? Quote Riverside CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I think all members can post... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen Is there any other one that says they cross the line? I most certainly do, and of course I shouldn't....... mainly because I'm a Pastor. (tic) Usually, I've been able to fix things with a PM conversation and that's why I said folks should at the very least try to express their upset to the person rather than to bring a third party into it at the beginning. My guess is that if someone was directly confronted by the hurt individual then things would get solved much more quickly and effectively. Stan can I humbly suggest that when presented with a complaint your first question should "be have you PM'd the person your complaining about?". While I can appreciate the "pm" route...I don't think Stan is complaining about a particular person but mainly an attitude present in many posters on politics...and attitude that assumes that every motive of (whoever they are attacking) is black. Now, it is true that there is ALOT of corruption in our government both past and present (and no I am not going to identify who or why...but our financial crisis is to blaim on more than just one person, past or present) but I think the thing that probably bothers Stan the most is the attacking of character instead of just policies. Let's say you really disagree with president or leader A. Instead of saying, "He is evil and is doing all in his power to pull our country down (or did pull our country down, or will pull our country down...I am not refering to anyone's post or any particular president past or present), it would be better to say, "I really dislike this policy because this is the net affect it has, in the long run." In a marriage relationship if you say things like "You know, that idea of yours was just plain stupid, sort of like you" you aren't going to get anywhere except in a fight. But if you say "That idea makes me uncomfortable for the following reasons." you are much more likely to have a discussion instead of a fight. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 This forum is mild in comparison to some of the discussion on political news items on the news services where the public can comment on the news. Political comments are always heated. I would not take offense Stan. All you have done is that now the non members will now take political discussion to the town hall. Politics affects us all. We have to vent somewhere. If not on the politcal area then in town hall. Not all are paying members. News services where people can post...is just so far out there that there is no comparison or there shouldn't be between them and us, in my opinion. I think we can disagree with policies, decisions etc and still have respect for humans as they were all created in God's image and the most awesome thing would be to see them all in heaven. I do think we are called to a higher standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I certainly crossed the line during my first few years on this forum. Of course I was assuming that if others could give it they could take it. I gave a lot of others grief over political issues and took a lot of grief from them. It didn't bother me or ruffle my feathers so I just rolled with it. I was involved with debate in high school and pretty much followed the same rules of debate here that had been established in high school. So while I crossed the line of what is normally considered good behavior in civil disagreements, I don't think I crossed the line of what would be allowed in high school debate. Once I figured out that most people do not come here to "debate" I changed my style of posting. I stopped addressing people directly. I focus on issues and not people. Some people choose to "marry" themselves to a political position so when I "attack" a position they feel like I am attacking them. I don't see how I can get around that. People have the right to change political positions. I don't marry anyone to a given position or assume they are married. I try to address the issues, not the people espousing them. I don't know if I have crossed the line of good behavior in civil debates over the past few years but I have felt uneasy about some posts that I have made so if I haven't crossed that line I have come dangerously close to it. Sometimes it is hard to figure out the best way to disagree with another person's viewpoint without insulting or degrading that person - especially on a topic that a person is passionate about. I try, sometimes more than others, to focus on disagreeing with viewpoints or positions. Obviously saying "you are a hypocrite" is crossing the line. Saying "that position is hypocritical" is not saying the same thing although the other poster may feel it is the same thing and feelings can become their reality. But somehow there has to be a civil way of disagreeing. If I watch a news commentary, listen to a radio talk show or read a political blog and somehow become convinced of a certain political opinion, I have been "sold" that opinion. That is, someone else has convinced me of it. If I then come here and say, "I believe XYZ is the way it should be." Another poster should be able to disagree by saying "I think XYZ completely ignores the reality of ABC" without me taking personal offense. It is like me buying a bad car and someone coming to me later and telling me, you bought a bad car. They are not insulting me, they are insulting the car. Political debates are going to get hot. That is a given. I see now way around that. Why some people that can't stand the heat insist on staying in the kitchen is beyond me. If politics upsets you - DON'T COME INTO THIS SECTION. If you can handle people disagreeing with your opinions - DON'T POST YOUR OPINIONS HERE. ************************************************************************ As far as making this section visible to paying members only. That is great. I think political threads posted in Townhall should still be moved here. However when that is done, it might be good to note that the thread has been moved to the Politics Forum which is only visible to paying members Some may actually subscribe to C/A just to have access to this political section. I don't know of anywhere else where Adventists discuss political issues so openly and freely as we do here. This is not something that is available anywhere else. Vigerous debate needs to include: 1. Respect for the office someone holds or held. 2. Respect for that leader because God loves them infinately. 3. A wish to help change the situation instead of just complain. 4. To discuss things in a way that can lead to solutions if at all possible. 5. To Vent frustration without being rude. 6. And yes though people can be married to their political office, calling someone's idea stupid probably isn't christian no matter whether they can "handle it or not". I don't think we need to be pansies who run to mama every time our feelings get stepped on but I do think we need to be "men and women of principle" that can be "truthful" while still being "redemptive." And Shane I appreciate you here on CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted April 9, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 9, 2009 Shane, I for one have certainly appreciated your efforts in changing your posting style. I feel a lot more comfortable with you as a PERSON since you did so. :) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I agree with you Taylor. I wish the forum would do more about stopping personal attacks ... even on our president. But, even more on our own members. I do 'lose' it when people call our president a liar and a murderer. Or ... call other's post 'toxic' just because we disagree with their politics. These kinds of inflammaory posts need to be challenged ... either by the Forum ... or by members. At some point we need to stand up and clean up. I would like to see more challenges to abusers. A simple ... that is not appropriate would be appreciated. Particularly by moderators. And it needs to be done at the first offense ... not after 10 pages of attacks. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 QR frame: Ain’t we got fun? So, who’s getting bruised? What am I missing? Oh, sorry. Too many questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 >>...the attacking of character instead of just policies.<< I’ve never known the term “your mama” to have been received as separate from the man to whom it was directed. Neither does the ‘there are many within the church who will be saved, but its leadership is the antichrist’ satisfactorily separate the congregrant from the ‘antichrist’. Generally a man’s “policies” are an extension of his person; besides, we’re posting to the political forum here - y’know, “bring it on...” Otherwise, my tuppence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Quote: Is there any other one that says they cross the line? >>I most certainly do, and of course I shouldn't.......<< Well, ‘pon my soul – I never! I steer by the lights and like of the Southern Cross and Bravus , and am blameless >>...mainly because I'm a Pastor. (tic)<< Hmm, I suppose that is reason to curb the bit, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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