Woody Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Transparency as in "Don't read the bill before you vote" ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 There are two issues in a discussion like this. 1st is real physical torture where a prisoner is physically harmed. That has been done by the CIA and the military although who authorized such torture is up for debate. It is currently against US policy and has been for a few years. 2nd is psychological torture. If this works (which is debatable) it will only work if prisoners are tricked into believing they are actually going to be harmed. Since the whole world now knows that we use psychological torture, I would suspect that its effectiveness will be greatly reduced in the future. The question then becomes: Morally speaking, is psychological torture wrong? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 If this information has already been known, then the terrorists can already use it. No further damage has been done by releasing the memos... To me, the bigger deal is the progress it shows that the government released them at all. 1. If any damage was done by the release of these memos it was done more by the media making a big deal over what was already known than by the Obama Administration actually releasing the memos. 2. Since most of this information had already been released, I don't see that this shows much "progress" for the government. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I didn't know that any information had been officially released previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Transparency as in "Don't read the bill before you vote" ? I agree with you on what you are insinuating here. Maybe I should have said it is a step toward the "perception" of the government being more transparent. I'm still not convinced Obama is any more transparent than GW was. But he is fairly good at giving that impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Yes. I agree. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 The question is: If you could save a thousand lives by frightening someone ... what would you do? I can tell you that these are hard questions ... but personally I have no doubt as to what Jesus would do. Some on the left ... would call what Jesus did in the Temple as torture. I don't. I maintain that the end does not justify the means. I think Jesus is about justice but even justice can have a very ugly face when humans get involved in "giving people what they deserve". Soon we can have a situation like exists in Ireland with the catholics and protestants killing each other. Just sad. The solution to a murder isn't more murder. A change in heart, confinement, punishment is the solution but I still maintain that torture is never warrented no matter how bad the crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Then we would have to define torture. Both Bush and Obama have indicated that torture is not used by the US. And certainly murder is not promoted encouraged or allowed. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Torture has been used in isolated cases, at least we hope it was isolated. There is plenty of evidence and whistle blowers even in our great military that have attested to that. Granted it may not be wide-spread but it is still sad that it has occured. It may not be "allowed" but we need to make sure it is soundly condemned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Then we would have to define torture. Both Bush and Obama have indicated that torture is not used by the US. And certainly murder is not promoted encouraged or allowed. My understanding is that the Red Cross is the recognized body that tells whether torture has been committed, so they apparently have some kind of guidelines, and they have said that torture was committed. Not sure why some people still have their heads in the sands of denial about this. I suspect it's because GW said otherwise and it's hard to admit their man may have lied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 When you're being tortured, you know it. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Quote: GW said otherwise and it's hard to admit their man may have lied I am not sure what it is about you that keeps calling Bush a liar. Why would one do that. During his presidency you did the same thing. That was one thing. But man ... the guy is out of office. Have some respect. It is not a lie to say that the US does not have policies that torture. Yet, there may be torture. And of course that depends upon who definition you use. But please ... let the man retire in peace. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 That is true, we may not have policies on torture, but torture did happen. That is true, from what I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2009 It's actually not that hard to define torture: the intentional infliction of pain for non-medical reasons. This does not include wounds given during active combat, since the objective there is to kill rather than to inflict pain. Any holes in that that you can see? I guess it might potentially leave things like waterboarding in a grey area, although anyone who has undergone it is pretty clear that it does involve pain. As I said above, people who are being tortured are in no doubt that they are being tortured. They're not lost in a maze of semantics - so if our goal is to protect them, neither can we be. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted April 19, 2009 Members Share Posted April 19, 2009 Well Redwood you can deny torture if you want, but we know that it definitely was being used. Having said that, it saved 1000s of lives since 9/11, that's for sure. Its one of the main reasons that we had no more attacks in the US and other places as well. Now do I condone torture, as a Christian, NO. Torture was used by the NV just for the fun of it, and that goes for the terrorists also, as far as the US and its allies are concerned, they use torture technics for the purpose of getting info to find out what the enemy is up to and not for fun. In that respect I would endorse it. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Like I said ... what would Jesus do. He wiped out entire terroristic States in the OT. I hardly consider caterpillars in that scope. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Over the centuries many countries, groups and individuals have selectively used quotes from the Bible to justify all manner of reprehensible behaviours including slavery, oppression and even genocide. Let's be careful that we don't go down the same road. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 20, 2009 If you can imagine Jesus torturing someone... we serve very different Jesuses. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Ahhh. He would just rather kill them? I would take the caterpillars any day. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I think the point is MUCH deeper than Catapillars...that was only one minor thing posted, the other tortures used were not nearly as minor. That is the problem. And considering we don't live in a theocratic society, we don't have God telling us to go "wipe out" any nation, I think we must be very careful indeed in playing God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 This is my point. What is torture for one person is not torture for another. For the sake of discussion .... I am referring to the caterpillars which has been called torture. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 If a prisoner is abused psychologically into believing a caterpiller is going to kill him, then I would think that should be considered psychological torture. At the very least, it would cause mental anguish and sleep deprivation, which are considered cruel and inhuman. It's not rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 The rocket science is ... would you have someone suffer some 'mental anguish' if it would save thousands of lives? Where are your priorities? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted April 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 20, 2009 Torture does not save lives. It's that simple and stark. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Maybe. But caterpillars do. You may be right about torture. I am talking about the mehods which our government has used. They have been effective in saving thousands of American lives. And of course ... those methods are not torture. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.