Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

there was a report out a few years that showed the actual number of abortions done in our hospitals, other than life saving to the mother. As I recall, there are more posts in this thread than there were abortions for the entire year at all the hospitals put together, with most of the have zero or close to it.

It all depends on whose sources you are relying on. Read what was reported by Spectrum magazine some years ago about just one of our Adventist hospitals, and consider that our Ministry magazine reported some years ago that five of our hospitals were engaged in the offering of elective abortion services to their patients. How would you react to this information?

Quote:

"What the documentary failed to include is that, according to a Washington Post report, between 1975 and 1982 our Adventist Washington Hospital terminated the lives of 1494 unborn infants through their abortion services to their patients."

More: http://sdaforum.com/page107.html

More: George Gainer, The Wisdom of Solomon? Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989): 38-46.

[Nic Samojluk]

I am for choice period. Don't care about pro this or pro that. That is a man made term. God create us with the ability to choose to do whatever we want. But we will have consequence's for what we choose. There will be either eternal life or extension when the world comes to an end!!!!! And that will be God judging us for those choice's not you or anyone else. I'm not saying that we can't judge a situation as to how we see it. But salvation is God's judgment, period.

I don’t think that we are discussing salvation here. We are all sinners and in need of forgiveness and salvation. What we are arguing here is how the church and society should react to crimes committed against the innocent.

If a car is stolen, we call the police. If a woman is raped, we call the police. If a criminal is threatening to kill a hostage, we call the police. But if an abortionists is about to butcher an innocent unborn baby, we claim that we need to respect their freedom to kill. I don’t understand this type of reasoning. Do you?

[Nic Samojluk]

The church has only one position of abortion. The church doesn't speak out of both sides of its mouth.

“The church doesn’t speak out of both sides of its mouth”? Read the “Guidelines on Abortion" one more time. What would you say if the government would say: “Stealing a car is a crime punishable by law, but here is a list of exceptions: A. If you a unemployed, B. If you have no reliable transportation, C. If your children are hungry, D. If you have an emergency and your own car won’t start, E. If you see that your neighbor has two cars and you have none, … then you are free to steal.”

Would the original statement asserting that car stealing is a crime punishable by law have any real meaning? We have twisted the original and true meaning of the Sixth Commandment beyond recognition.

We have done to said injunction against shedding the blood of innocents what Rome did to the Fourth. The difference is that worshipping the Lord on the wrong day of the week does not deprive anybody of life yet, while abortion has decimated the population of the U.S. by fifty million.

[Nic Samojluk]

Which of all the Adventist hospitals in the US perform abortions and which ones do not? AND how many a year?

Good question! This is like asking Iran and North Korea how many missiles they have and how many atomic weapons they are planning to develop. I have written to the General Conference on many occasions and I have also asked the people in charge of the Washington Adventist Hospital to tell me how many abortions they perform and what kind. My messages must have been swallowed by a black hole. I have given up on trying!

Have you followed up on the controversy regarding the teaching of evolution a La Sierra University? Did you notice how futile is trying to get a response from management? Did you realize how much ink was used to secure a meaningless response?

[Dr. Shane]

What would you say if the government would say: “Stealing a car is a crime punishable by law...

Sounds like bunch of rambling on and on and on and on...

[Dr. Shane]

This is like asking Iran and North Korea how many missiles they have and how many atomic weapons they are planning to develop...

[Overaged]

Now that I have said this, let me share with you what is a fundamental concern of mine: We Adventists do claim to be the light of the world, we claim to be the “Remnant” of God who keep God’s Commandments, and yet we advocate women’s right to violate one of God’s Ten Rules. This destroys the credibility of the SDA Church.

You keep going around in circles with this issue, in every thread you start this argument. The official Church statement on Abortion places the emphasis on abortion alternatives; and what you are apparently angry about is that the Church has chosen to not be judge and jury in individual situations like you are choosing to do. You have shown over and over again on the internet how you have a long list of beefs with the Church; none of them related to abortion; yet you carry on, touting your "dissertation" under the guise of the abortion issue. You are someone who will not stop at any opportunity to take a pot-shot at the Church; and you have the gall to try telling the public that it's about "abortion." There isn't one single hospital or individual who speaks officially for the Church when they perform abortions; you need to learn to distinguish the two.

[Overaged]

My point is rather simple. On an internet forum board none of us have any way of verifying who others are. It would make one rather gullible to believe everything they read on one of these boards. So I am not going to believe that a GC president said something just because I read it on an internet forum. Not everything on the internet is true.

I know that Adventist hospitals have refused care to pregnant women that were unmarried because they were unmarried. Now I am asked to believe that the same hospital will not deliver the live child of an unwed mother because she is unwed but will abort the child? Something isn't right with that picture.

I believe that the person who said this about Wilson should have said what else he said about this subject, instead of lifting one sentence out and making it say this. Context would likely shed a whole new light on that person's comment.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

This is like asking Iran and North Korea how many missiles they have and how many atomic weapons they are planning to develop...

[Tammy]

I would like to share my own personal testimony with Neil C. Wilson. In 1981, my husband and I lived in Collegedale, TN. Wilson (who was the GC President at the time) came to hold a forum Sabbath afternoon at the College Church. We decided to go. It was an open forum, anyone could ask any question. Someone asked him, "Why do our hospitals perform abortions?" My husband and I looked at each other in disbelief....we thought, "Surely our hospitals do not perform abortions...." But sadly, we were wrong. Wilson confirmed that our hospitals did perform abortions and that the reason we did them was because if we didn't do them, the women would just go somewheres else to have them done, so we may as well accommodate them. In other words, Why shouldn't we make the money on them as well as someone else making the money on them, because if turned the women away, it wasn't going to stop them from having the abortion anyways?.... We were shocked to hear the President of the GC having no problem with our hospitals doing abortions. This is NOT hearsay...we heard this with our own ears.

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

What would you say if the government would say: “Stealing a car is a crime punishable by law...

Sounds like bunch of rambling on and on and on and on...

Not true, Shane. Nic is not rambling at all...he is making excellent points....and because you all don't have answers for the points he is making, you try to sooth your conscience by saying he's "rambling".

I've never met a person yet who has such good responses to every Pro-Choice argument as Nic does.. Shane, you should be ashamed of how you are treating him...and so should those of you who think it is funny.

There isn't anything funny about this subject...NOTHING. If you could see into Heaven, you wouldn't see any Angels who think it is funny.

[Tammy]

What is it that some of you question - the fact that abortions are performed in SDA hospitals or the fact that SDA's should not be Pro-Choice? I would think that there is no question that abortions are performed in SDA hospitals....everyone on both sides of the issue admits that. So your question must involve whether or not SDA's should not be Pro-Choice. Am I correct?

[Tammy]

Have you read this statement lately?

Quote:

The liquor interest is a power in the world. It has on its side the combined strength of money, habit, appetite. Its power is felt even in the church. Men whose money has been made, directly or indirectly, in the liquor traffic, are members of churches, "in good and regular standing." Many of them give liberally to popular charities. Their contributions help to support the enterprises of the church and to sustain its ministers. They command the consideration shown to the money power. Churches that accept such members are virtually sustaining the liquor traffic. Too often the minister has not the courage to stand for the right. He does not declare to his people what God has said concerning the work of the liquor seller. To speak plainly would mean the offending of his congregation, the sacrifice of his popularity, the loss of his salary. {MH 340.1}

But above the tribunal of the church is the tribunal of God. He who declared to the first murderer, "The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10), will not accept for His altar the gifts of the liquor dealer. His anger is kindled against those who attempt to cover their guilt with a cloak of liberality. Their money is stained with blood. A curse is upon it.

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices

unto Me? saith the Lord. . . .

When ye come to appear before Me,

Who hath required this at your hand, to tread My courts?

Bring no more vain oblation . . . .

When ye spread forth your hands,

I will hide Mine eyes from you:

Yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear:

Your hands are full of blood."

Isaiah 1:11-15. {MH 340.2}

If God says that He doesn't want any money donated to Him from those who are making money in ANY way from alcohol....what would He say about the money from those who are making money in the abortion industry? If alcohol money is "stained with blood", abortion money is "stained with blood" a 100 times more!

It would be bad enough if the SDA church had some members who were in the abortion business, but the awful truth is, the SDA Church is in the abortion business itself! I don't think you will find the Catholic name on any hospitals that do abortions....but you will find the Seventh Day Adventist name on hospitals that do abortions.

If Paul told the Jews in his day,

Quote:

Rom 2:24 No wonder the Scriptures say, "The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."

What would he say today????

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

#243871

I couldn't NOT believe what I heard! I was shocked! And to hear it from the GC President, with my own ears!

#244240

Originally Posted By: Tammy

We heard that with our own ears...we nearly feel off the pews....we couldn't believe our ears. And it wasn't just an employee of the Church, it was the GC President himself who said it.

#245620

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I think and hope that it will SHOCK many of you. Some questioned what I had said about Neil Wilson and abortion, on another thread...if I had known what he said in the '70's, I would not have been shocked at what he said in the '80's.

#409534

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I find it appalling the stand the SDA Church takes on abortion

#409699

Originally Posted By: Tammy

It was such a shock to me when I found out...

#413085

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I would like to share my own personal testimony with Neil C. Wilson....My husband and I looked at each other in disbelief....we thought, "Surely our hospitals do not perform abortions....'

Do I hear a "testimony du jour"??????

And these quotes don't even include the ones from a thread involving a doctoral thesis on abortion and its questionable research, ethics, professionalism, and lack of university accreditation.

AND TO TOP IT OFF:

#243778

Originally Posted By: Tammy quoting from Catholic 'magazine'

"I wonder if those words [‘Think of your children.’ - said by picketers at abortion clinics] were haunting Feldkamp as well as he stood in the snow among the remains of loved ones, just feet from the ‘Tomb of the Unborn’[erected as a dedication to all babies who have died because of abortion.]?"

THERE IS NO "TOMB OF THE UNBORN" IN THAT CEMETERY WHERE THE CRASH OCCURRED. Spreading unfounded rumors is unbiblical. It is gossip. It is sin. So until someone has reached ultimate perfection, please - spare me the homilies regarding the the "wrongfulness" of a woman's right to choose. It isn't your business. It's God's. And I'm assuming you aren't God.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I've never met a person yet who has such good responses to every Pro-Choice argument as Nic does.. Shane, you should be ashamed of how you are treating him...and so should those of you who think it is funny.

Nic's research has been shown to be questionable. His doctoral "thesis" was unprofessional and rambling. And you, my dear missy, ought not to tell *anyone* to be ashamed about his/her opinion. It smacks of self-righteousness and crosses boundaries. I, for one, am not giving you that power.

[Tammy]

#243871

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I couldn't NOT believe what I heard! I was shocked! And to hear it from the GC President, with my own ears!

#244240

Originally Posted By: Tammy

We heard that with our own ears...we nearly feel off the pews....we couldn't believe our ears. And it wasn't just an employee of the Church, it was the GC President himself who said it.

#245620

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I think and hope that it will SHOCK many of you. Some questioned what I had said about Neil Wilson and abortion, on another thread...if I had known what he said in the '70's, I would not have been shocked at what he said in the '80's.

#409534

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I find it appalling the stand the SDA Church takes on abortion

#409699

Originally Posted By: Tammy

It was such a shock to me when I found out...

#413085

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I would like to share my own personal testimony with Neil C. Wilson....My husband and I looked at each other in disbelief....we thought, "Surely our hospitals do not perform abortions....'

Do I hear a "testimony du jour"??????

And these quotes don't even include the ones from a thread involving a doctoral thesis on abortion and its questionable research, ethics, professionalism, and lack of university accreditation.

AND TO TOP IT OFF:

#243778

Originally Posted By: Tammy quoting from Catholic 'magazine'

"I wonder if those words [‘Think of your children.’ - said by picketers at abortion clinics] were haunting Feldkamp as well as he stood in the snow among the remains of loved ones, just feet from the ‘Tomb of the Unborn’[erected as a dedication to all babies who have died because of abortion.]?"

THERE IS NO "TOMB OF THE UNBORN" IN THAT CEMETERY WHERE THE CRASH OCCURRED. Spreading unfounded rumors is unbiblical. It is gossip. It is sin. So until someone has reached ultimate perfection, please - spare me the homilies regarding the the "wrongfulness" of a woman's right to choose. It isn't your business. It's God's. And I'm assuming you aren't God.

I don't understand what your problem with my statements. As to the "tomb of the unborn"....I've never been there...have you? How do you know it is gossip? Nothing else was gossip...so why do you think this is.. according to SNOPES....they said it has not been confirmed, but that doesn't mean it isn't true... And according to this person (see the link) they have been to the cemetery and it is true...

Saddest Irony Saddest Irony...

Snopes.com

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I've never met a person yet who has such good responses to every Pro-Choice argument as Nic does.. Shane, you should be ashamed of how you are treating him...and so should those of you who think it is funny.

Nic's research has been shown to be questionable. His doctoral "thesis" was unprofessional and rambling. And you, my dear missy, ought not to tell *anyone* to be ashamed about his/her opinion. It smacks of self-righteousness and crosses boundaries. I, for one, am not giving you that power.

You are welcome to your opinion, and I'll keep mine.

What other commandments do you think it is not necessary to keep, besides, "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?

Why do you think anyone should leave their Sunday Church and come to join the SDA Church? They don't keep the 4th, but the SDA church doesn't keep the 6th, so are they really any better off joining the SDA Church?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I hereby give you the Red Herring Achievement Award!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What other commandments do you think it is not necessary to keep, besides, "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?

I shall be forever damned. I swatted a stinkbug yesterday.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

What would you say if the government would say: “Stealing a car is a crime punishable by law...

Sounds like bunch of rambling on and on and on and on...

Let's get serious! Do you believe that a car is worth more than the life of an innocent unborn baby? Did Jesus also die for unborn babies, or only for those who were allowed to be born? Is it fair for society and the church to be very strict about stealing material things, but be so lenient about the stealing of human life?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

This is like asking Iran and North Korea how many missiles they have and how many atomic weapons they are planning to develop...

Can somone tell me what the message of this video is? I listend to it from beginning to the end and failed to understand the lyrics. What is the point of music if you can't figure out the words?

[Nic Samojluk]

You keep going around in circles with this issue, in every thread you start this argument. The official Church statement on Abortion places the emphasis on abortion alternatives;

[Overaged]

I would like to share my own personal testimony with Neil C. Wilson. In 1981, my husband and I lived in Collegedale, TN. Wilson (who was the GC President at the time) came to hold a forum Sabbath afternoon at the College Church. We decided to go. It was an open forum, anyone could ask any question. Someone asked him, "Why do our hospitals perform abortions?" My husband and I looked at each other in disbelief....we thought, "Surely our hospitals do not perform abortions...." But sadly, we were wrong. Wilson confirmed that our hospitals did perform abortions and that the reason we did them was because if we didn't do them, the women would just go somewheres else to have them done, so we may as well accommodate them. In other words, Why shouldn't we make the money on them as well as someone else making the money on them, because if turned the women away, it wasn't going to stop them from having the abortion anyways?.... We were shocked to hear the President of the GC having no problem with our hospitals doing abortions. This is NOT hearsay...we heard this with our own ears.

It is worse than "heresy" if you ask us to believe something like this on an internet forum without one other shred of evidence to support it. It is breaking one of the ten commandments to say things that are not proven to be true; and the Bible says if you break one; you break them all. Welcome to the club of those who support murder, adultery, and the whole lot of them!

You & Nick, & supporters of this fanatacism about the Church supporting muder are the ones who should be ashamed of yourselves. No matter how you twist the words of the Church; you cannot prove that the church officially supports murder. All you guys can do is group this claim along with your other beefs with the Church, in a stubborn attempt to bolster your "case."

[Overaged]

Nic; forget the magician tricks and theatrics of "I can tell" mantra. I told you many times that I have read your so-called dissertation. I have it on my computer, and have had since you made it available. It is a ridiculous piece of writing. Certainly not what I would call "scholarly."

[Nic Samojluk]