Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: overaged

You have shown over and over again on the internet how you have a long list of beliefs with the Church; none of them related to abortion; yet you carry on, touting your "dissertation" under the guise of the abortion issue.

Long list of beliefs? Are you looking through a magnifying glass perhaps? My main concern is the violation of one of the Ten Rules the Lord gave for humanity. Anything else pales in comparison with this issue. Are you trying to divert our attention from the main issue being discussed here? This kind of tactic has proved to be an effective weapon in the past when trying to silence an opponent. Can we stick to the main issue here?

You yourself have brought up these other issues; not me or anyone else. When you can stick to the so-called "main issue" then maybe other people can too; but to try and pretend that abortion is all you are concerned about is just plain unbelievable. Your words, not mine.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Shane

My point is rather simple. On an internet forum board none of us have any way of verifying who others are. It would make one rather gullible to believe everything they read on one of these boards. So I am not going to believe that a GC president said something just because I read it on an internet forum. Not everything on the internet is true.

I know that Adventist hospitals have refused care to pregnant women that were unmarried because they were unmarried. Now I am asked to believe that the same hospital will not deliver the live child of an unwed mother because she is unwed but will abort the child? Something isn't right with that picture.

I believe that the person who said this about Wilson should have said what else he said about this subject, instead of lifting one sentence out and making it say this. Context would likely shed a whole new light on that person's comment.

What former G.C. president said when he was N.A.D.president back in the late 60's and early 70's is a documented and irrefutable fact.His public sentiments on the issue were no secret.George Gainer,now a pastor in the Portland, Oregon area,documented them in his research paper entitled "The Wisdom of Solomon? Or The Politics of Pragmatism: The General Conference Abortion Decision 1970-71".An abreviated portion of that paper was published in the May 1989 issue of Spectrum magazine. It is probably the only factual documentation of SDA involvment in the abortion debate. And it clearly illustrates the reason behind the continuing confusion amongst SDA's concerning the church's non-position/position on abortion today.It is a fascinating read.The fact that Wilson's remarks have just recently been posted on the internet should not be used as a reason to doubt their accuracy.

[doug yowell]

Can somone tell me what the message of this video is? I listend to it from beginning to the end and failed to understand the lyrics. What is the point of music if you can't figure out the words?

It appears that Shane has resorted to mocking what he doesn't accept.

[Overaged]

What former G.C. president said when he was N.A.D.president back in the late 60's and early 70's is a documented and irrefutable fact.His public sentiments on the issue were no secret.George Gainer,now a pastor in the Portland, Oregon area,documented them in his research paper entitled "The Wisdom of Solomon? Or The Politics of Pragmatism: The General Conference Abortion Decision 1970-71".An abreviated portion of that paper was published in the May 1989 issue of Spectrum magazine. It is probably the only factual documentation of SDA involvment in the abortion debate. And it clearly illustrates the reason behind the continuing confusion amongst SDA's concerning the church's non-position/position on abortion today.It is a fascinating read.The fact that Wilson's remarks have just recently been posted on the internet should not be used as a reason to doubt their accuracy.

It's that little word "abbreviated" that we can use as our evidence that something supposedly said 30 years ago by someone, (no matter who) is speaking officially for the Church today, and accurately saying what they believe

[Nic Samojluk]

I would like to share my own personal testimony with Neil C. Wilson. In 1981, my husband and I lived in Collegedale, TN. Wilson (who was the GC President at the time) came to hold a forum Sabbath afternoon at the College Church. We decided to go. It was an open forum, anyone could ask any question. Someone asked him, "Why do our hospitals perform abortions?" My husband and I looked at each other in disbelief....we thought, "Surely our hospitals do not perform abortions...." But sadly, we were wrong. Wilson confirmed that our hospitals did perform abortions and that the reason we did them was because if we didn't do them, the women would just go somewheres else to have them done, so we may as well accommodate them. In other words, Why shouldn't we make the money on them as well as someone else making the money on them, because if turned the women away, it wasn't going to stop them from having the abortion anyways?.... We were shocked to hear the President of the GC having no problem with our hospitals doing abortions. This is NOT hearsay...we heard this with our own ears.

Thanks, Tammy, for sharing with us this personal testimony of what you heard with your own ears. Your testimony is biblically valid, because your husband was with you and heard the same thing. I heard the same story from a third party who was present at said meeting. Besides, it matches the explanation Dr. Edward C. Allred, the former owner and founder of a large California abortion clinics, gave on one occasion as the reason for his involvement in the lucrative business of killing innocent unborn children.

Allred was a graduate of the Loma Linda University, and his original dream was to study for the ministry. He switched majors and became a physician instead. Thanks to the great demand for child killing, he became a millionaire and recently retired and sold his lucrative business to a group of investors among whom “Bud” Fedlkamp was one of them. You might have read the story of the tragic plain crash in which Fedlkamp lost a large number of family members.

When asked about his opinion regarding the killing of innocent unborn babies, Allred responded by saying that he hoped one day the law legalizing abortion would be overturned, but he was determined to take advantage of it while the killing was still legal. He added that, if he were to close his business, women would seek the abortion services of someone else.

[doug yowell]

It's that little word "abbreviated" that we can use as our evidence that something supposedly said 30 years ago by someone, (no matter who) is speaking officially for the Church today, and accurately saying what they believe

The abbreviated refers to the portion of the article published in Spectrum not the actual quote itself. As N.A.D. president Wilson spoke to the press in an official capacity back in the 60's and 70's. I don't think that anyone's trying to say that he spoke officially for the church in 1992. But his remarks reveal the direction he believed the church was going back when he made them.Wilson never attempted to keep his opinions on the subject hidden.Is it easier to hang your doubting hat on a maybe than finding something more concrete?None of Gainer's evidence has ever been questioned.And Gainer cannot be dismissed as a church hating dissident with an ax to grind,he's been a dedicated SDA pastor for years.

[Overaged]

I don't have a "doubting hat." The truth depends entirely on evidence; and you are trying to tell us that the "truth" is some say so's from 30 years ago? Right.

[doug yowell]

I don't have a "doubting hat." The truth depends entirely on evidence; and you are trying to tell us that the "truth" is some say so's from 30 years ago? Right.

Yes. The written and (recorded) spoken evidence that is available to anyone who's interested.If there is any evidence to the contrary I think that it should also be a part of the search for the truth. I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at, oa. Are you suggesting that what was said and written in the past was not really said and written? Help me out here.(And keep that good natured attitude, please!)

[Overaged]

You keep forgetting that something even a Pastor says may not be officially speaking for the Church; and my point remains that IF this was infact said by Wilson 30 YEARS AGO there is NO WAY a connection to todays OFFICIAL CHURCH POLICY can ever be made. The desperate clutching at 30 year old snippets of conversation reflects on the quality of "evidence" you & others seem bent on promoting. It amounts to you promoting a deliberate lie. Is that good natured enough for you Sir?

[Twilight]

OA.

Are you saying you KNOW that the church hospitals are not performing abortions?

I am not sure what exactly your position is?

[Overaged]

OA.

Are you saying you KNOW that the church hospitals are not performing abortions?

I am not sure what exactly your position is?

I did not state anything about hospitals; and I am not going to take sides. My issue is that the official church position on abortion is being deliberately distorted for various reasons.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

OA.

Are you saying you KNOW that the church hospitals are not performing abortions?

I am not sure what exactly your position is?

I did not state anything about hospitals; and I am not going to take sides. My issue is that the official church position on abortion is being deliberately distorted for various reasons.

Do you want to expand on how the official church position is being distorted?

[phkrause]

I would like to share my own personal testimony with Neil C. Wilson. In 1981, my husband and I lived in Collegedale, TN. Wilson (who was the GC President at the time) came to hold a forum Sabbath afternoon at the College Church. We decided to go. It was an open forum, anyone could ask any question. Someone asked him, "Why do our hospitals perform abortions?" My husband and I looked at each other in disbelief....we thought, "Surely our hospitals do not perform abortions...." But sadly, we were wrong. Wilson confirmed that our hospitals did perform abortions and that the reason we did them was because if we didn't do them, the women would just go somewheres else to have them done, so we may as well accommodate them. In other words, Why shouldn't we make the money on them as well as someone else making the money on them, because if turned the women away, it wasn't going to stop them from having the abortion anyways?.... We were shocked to hear the President of the GC having no problem with our hospitals doing abortions. This is NOT hearsay...we heard this with our own ears.

Your assuming here!!!!! How do you know that is what he really meant??? From this I'm understanding that he is saying that they would just go to some local butcher and get it there. Than not only would they be "murdering" there unborn but maybe themselves as well.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pam, evidently you did undersand the lyrics. Am I the only one here who didn't? Of course, I am not into popular music. Besides, I was not born in this country. Can someone share with me what the message of that song is? It must be a good one, because it seemed hilarious to you.

"ramblin'" is vernacular for "rambling"... the song was sung by the Allman Bros. in 1973 (a very good year). You would have been how old? late 30's, early 40's? I thought Shane's choice of song was very apt. "Apt" means "appropriate"..

***

re: Hospital record-keeping of abortions.

Medical centers, clinics, and physicians' offices use CPT (Current Procedural Terminology) codes to track disease and procedures incidence. Under the heading of "Abortion," there is, to wit:

Incomplete

Induced: by Dilation and Curettage; by Dilation and Evacuation; by Saline; by Vaginal Suppositories; with Hysterectomy

Missed: First Trimester; Second Trimester.

Septic

Spontaneous

Therapeutic: by Saline, with Dilation and Curettage; with Hysterectomy.

CPT codes can be used singly or in conjunction with other CPT codes.

In no place are hospital records kept of "convenience" abortions. Researchers of hospital data would be restricted to the use of these codes. There is no way for someone to take statistics from these codes and "prove" that such-and-such a hospital generated the highest number of non-therapeutic abortions done for convenience.

And with that, as Overaged has so aptly demonstrated, I am also tired of grandma's good beans.

[Overaged]

And with that, as Overaged has so aptly demonstrated, I am also tired of grandma's good beans.

LOL, thx

But seriously; this whole conspiracy theory by Nic and supporters re abortion and the church is just a front for other problems.

It doesn't mean that there are no Adventists doing abortions; but it also does not mean that the Church's official positon on abortion agrees with same; nor does it mean the Church "supports murder." Actually, that is a very Roman Catholic argument, only intended to bring the Church into ill-repute.

When Nic comes up with some real evidence FROM THE OFFICIAL MOUTH OF THE GENERAL CONFERENCE, instead of constantly quoting his poor excuse for a doctoral thesis/dissertation as "evidence," then maybe we could have a more valuable discussion about this topic. This redherring charge of "murder" against the church, well, it's kind of like that "sacred" cow to the malcontents who keep bringing it up.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Sounds like bunch of rambling on and on and on and on...

Not true, Shane. Nic is not rambling at all...he is making excellent points....and because you all don't have answers for the points he is making, you try to sooth your conscience by saying he's "rambling".

I've never met a person yet who has such good responses to every Pro-Choice argument as Nic does.. Shane, you should be ashamed of how you are treating him...and so should those of you who think it is funny.

There isn't anything funny about this subject...NOTHING. If you could see into Heaven, you wouldn't see any Angels who think it is funny.

Thanks, Tammy!

[Nic Samojluk]

Have you read this statement lately?

Quote:

The liquor interest is a power in the world. It has on its side the combined strength of money, habit, appetite. Its power is felt even in the church. Men whose money has been made, directly or indirectly, in the liquor traffic, are members of churches, "in good and regular standing." Many of them give liberally to popular charities. Their contributions help to support the enterprises of the church and to sustain its ministers. They command the consideration shown to the money power. Churches that accept such members are virtually sustaining the liquor traffic. Too often the minister has not the courage to stand for the right. He does not declare to his people what God has said concerning the work of the liquor seller. To speak plainly would mean the offending of his congregation, the sacrifice of his popularity, the loss of his salary. {MH 340.1}

But above the tribunal of the church is the tribunal of God. He who declared to the first murderer, "The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground" (Genesis 4:10), will not accept for His altar the gifts of the liquor dealer. His anger is kindled against those who attempt to cover their guilt with a cloak of liberality. Their money is stained with blood. A curse is upon it.

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices

unto Me? saith the Lord. . . .

When ye come to appear before Me,

Who hath required this at your hand, to tread My courts?

Bring no more vain oblation . . . .

When ye spread forth your hands,

I will hide Mine eyes from you:

Yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear:

Your hands are full of blood."

Isaiah 1:11-15. {MH 340.2}

If God says that He doesn't want any money donated to Him from those who are making money in ANY way from alcohol....what would He say about the money from those who are making money in the abortion industry? If alcohol money is "stained with blood", abortion money is "stained with blood" a 100 times more!

It would be bad enough if the SDA church had some members who were in the abortion business, but the awful truth is, the SDA Church is in the abortion business itself! I don't think you will find the Catholic name on any hospitals that do abortions....but you will find the Seventh Day Adventist name on hospitals that do abortions.

If Paul told the Jews in his day,

Quote:

Rom 2:24 No wonder the Scriptures say, "The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."

What would he say today????

Excellent comments, great argument, and a probing question. Keep it on. We are praying for you! The Lord will reward you for your faithfulness to his Word.

[Nic Samojluk]

THERE IS NO "TOMB OF THE UNBORN" IN THAT CEMETERY WHERE THE CRASH OCCURRED. Spreading unfounded rumors is unbiblical. It is gossip. It is sin. So until someone has reached ultimate perfection, please - spare me the homilies regarding the the "wrongfulness" of a woman's right to choose. It isn't your business. It's God's. And I'm assuming you aren't God.

Have you verified this yourself? Tammy shared with you what she personally heard Neal Wilson say. Are you doubting that too? Are you doubting the plain crash as well? There was a special sermon preached in Loma Linda by Pastor Randy Roberts in memory of those who perished in said tragic event.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Pam

THERE IS NO "TOMB OF THE UNBORN" IN THAT CEMETERY WHERE THE CRASH OCCURRED. Spreading unfounded rumors is unbiblical. It is gossip. It is sin. So until someone has reached ultimate perfection, please - spare me the homilies regarding the the "wrongfulness" of a woman's right to choose. It isn't your business. It's God's. And I'm assuming you aren't God.

Have you verified this yourself? Tammy shared with you what she personally heard Neal Wilson say. Are you doubting that too?

[doug yowell]

You keep forgetting that something even a Pastor says may not be officially speaking for the Church; and my point remains that IF this was infact said by Wilson 30 YEARS AGO there is NO WAY a connection to todays OFFICIAL CHURCH POLICY can ever be made. The desperate clutching at 30 year old snippets of conversation reflects on the quality of "evidence" you & others seem bent on promoting. It amounts to you promoting a deliberate lie. Is that good natured enough for you Sir?

Calling me a liar while offering no evidence of it other than your ignorant(in a good way)assertions stands as your chosen judgment.You seem desparate to condemn what you don't care to investigate. What one piece of evidence have you offered to contradict any connection? None. Why not?? Because you intuitively know all about the situation??? Snippets of conversation?? You mean interviews with the secular press that are published for all to see? And this is your version of quality evidence? If I'm a liar than post some evidence to prove it other than your groundless assertions!!

[doug yowell]

Do you want to expand on how the official church position is being distorted?

There is no "official" church position so there's nothing to distort about it.Nobody seems to want to admit this.

[Dr. Shane]

Nic is not rambling at all...he is making excellent points....and because you all don't have answers for the points he is making, you try to sooth your conscience by saying he's "rambling".

Actually, I have refuted every point Nic has made. He continues to repeat the same old arguments that I have already defeated. I am not going to continue to destroy his logic and expose his papal sympathies just because he continues to repeat himself over and over and over and over. He is rambling on and on. I get it. He believes the pope is right and the Adventist church is wrong. He is entitled to that opinion. I disagree. I believe the Adventist church is right and the pope is wrong. That is why I am an Adventist and Nic is a papist (or at least sympathetic to them).

[Dr. Shane]

It appears that Shane has resorted to mocking what he doesn't accept.

You have to roll with the punches...

[Dr. Shane]

The General Conference Abortion Decision 1970-71".An abreviated portion of that paper was published in the May 1989 issue of Spectrum magazine. It is probably the only factual documentation of SDA involvment in the abortion debate.

My life is too short to read anything in Spectrum Magazine. They seem to really getting into creating division and strife in the church. I am more of a unity and love kind of a guy.

[Dr. Shane]

There is no "official" church position so there's nothing to distort about it.