Neil D Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Regardless of whether Spc. Charles Graner's 10-year sentence was too harsh or too light - many Iraqis apparently think he should be executed in front of his victims - his trial should be the first of many involving military personnel who took part in or condoned the abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Spc. Graner was not a scapegoat. He abused detainees and directed others to do so. But he and his low-level colleagues who face judicial hearings are not the only ones who should be punished. In the words of Mr. Graner's lawyer, Guy Womack, "they are going after the order-takers" not "the order-givers." Pentagon reviews have implicated high-ranking military officials in the abuse scandal. None of them has faced disciplinary action. Instead, Spc. Graner and six of his colleagues from the 372nd Military Policy Co., based in Maryland, were court-martialed. Three pleaded guilty and testified against him and three are awaiting trial. A jury of combat veterans found Charles Graner guilty of abusing prisoners. He was sentenced Saturday to 10 years in prison. Two reports done this summer blame the leadership failures for the situation at Abu Ghraib, a prison outside Baghdad. One report, done by former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger, blamed Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, then the top U.S. commander in Iraq, for failing to adequately supervise interrogation techniques. The report also criticized chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for inadequate supervision and for failing to acknowledge and correct the situation sooner. The report did not say these officials should be reprimanded or disciplined. The Schlesinger report did recommend discipline against five officers. Two of them, Col. Thomas Pappas, the highest-ranking military intelligence officer at the prison, and Lt. Col. Steven Jordan, the head of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center at Abu Ghraib, were implicated by witnesses during Spc. Graner's trial. The witnesses said the men had either known about or encouraged some of the tactics captured in photographs that shocked the world. Pentagon reviews are ongoing and a spokesman said that as wrongdoers are identified, they will be "dealt with appropriately." While, Mr. Graner should not be executed, Pentagon officials and members of Congress should be mindful of the message the United States has sent to the Middle East. Allowing the abuse to take place, belatedly acknowledging it and downplaying its severity has only fueled animosity toward America, perhaps spawning new terrorists. That is a good reason to discipline the order-givers. [:"blue"] So, let's go get'em. Let's start at the top, with Rumsfelt. [/] Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted January 18, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 18, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> .. Pentagon officials and members of Congress should be mindful of the message the United States has sent to the Middle East. Allowing the abuse to take place, belatedly acknowledging it and downplaying its severity has only fueled animosity toward America, perhaps spawning new terrorists. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> And this torture on the part of the U.S. gives our enemies license to torture our own U.S. troops any time they might be captured. So our administration has laid our troops wide open to being tortured and maimed. Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Problem with your theory is that Arabic nations have been torturing western soldiers, jornalists and businessmen for many years before any prison abuse took place on the part of the US. The Arabic press just looks for any reason to stir up hatred toward the US. No sense in us beating ourselves up too much over this. If it wasn't this, they would have found something else to use to villianize us. Fact is that there are many more soldiers in our own prisons here at home that get tortured worse than those did in Iraq. But it is unlikely that the Arabic media will present such a balanced perspective. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 Quote: Problem with your theory is that Arabic nations have been torturing western soldiers, jornalists and businessmen for many years before any prison abuse took place on the part of the US. Let's stop right there, Shane. WE are RESPONSIBLE for OUR OWN. What they have done doesn't concern us. We, are the good guys, but when we start looking like the bad guys, we cause everyone to loose faith. You are pointing that stupid finger again, Shane. Suck it up, and act like a man, Shane. Call a spade a spade, and quit making excuses for the bad man in office. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> We, are the good guys <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> We agree. Now act like it. Be proad of your nation. Even our abuses pale in comparrison to our enemy's. And look close. Those that committed those abuses are on trial and being punished. What is happening to the muslems that have been chopping off heads? Say it again and say it often "We, are the good guys" Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 19, 2005 Except that your government is working very hard right now to lower the bar. Gonzales in particular, but Rice also, is calling the Geneva Convention 'quaint' and outmoded, and saying it no longer applies in the law on terror. This is top level policy, not that sick mongrel Graner. If you want to stay the good guys, you need to be opposing this energetically. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 Quote: Quote: We, are the good guys We agree. Now act like it. Be proad of your nation. I am proud of my nation, Shane. But I am talking about the leadership of my nation. It shames ME when they abuse the trust that WE THE PEOPLE gave to them. And I have a duty and a right to VOICE MY OPINION when I see those very abuses that shame me and my country. So dont you lecture me about what I can be proud of BECAUSE I AIN'T PROUD OF THIS PRESIDENT. HIS ADMINISTRATIONS SCANDELS and TREASONOUS ACT have cost my country dearly. Quote: Even our abuses pale in comparrison to our enemy's. And look close. Those that committed those abuses are on trial and being punished. What is happening to the muslems that have been chopping off heads? As I have said before, Shane, what THEY do doesn't affect how WE behave and our principles. WE are the good guys, and we need to start acting like it, begining with the head of this country. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> It shames ME when they abuse the trust that WE THE PEOPLE gave to them <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Are you talking about when they get BJs in the Oval Office from interns and jerk off in the waste basket? Yea, I agree. That is abusing the people's trust. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 Which only goes to show that you Republicans are still mad at Clinton....and still living in the past. For shame, Shane Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 It is not about who hit who first. It is about seeing things in prespective. Say you witnessed two neighbor kids fighting. One was pulling the fingernails out of the other with pliars. So the one losing his fingernails kicked the other in the groan. Would you start yelling at him for kicking in the groan and lecture him on how to fight fair? Of course not. You would have prespective on the situation. Two wrongs don't make a right but some wrongs are worse than others. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Which only goes to show that you Republicans are still mad at Clinton <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> You are the only one talking about Republicans. I am a moderate and when there is a pro-life Democrat on the ballot or a pro-choice Republican, I have no alligance to any party. (I have voted for pro-life Democrats) Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 Quote: You are the only one talking about Republicans. I am a moderate and when there is a pro-life Democrat on the ballot or a pro-choice Republican, I have no alligance to any party. (I have voted for pro-life Democrats) If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, waddles like a duck, has the coloring of a duck, and you can classify it as a duck, then it's gotta be a duck, regardless of what it says it is. You talk like a republican, you act like a conservative republican, you uuse language that the right wingers use, I can classify you as a republican, regardless of where you want to place yourself by defining the values of today. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, waddles like a duck, has the coloring of a duck, and you can classify it as a duck, then it's gotta be a duck, <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Sounds a lot like the KKK. So would a Republican donate money to pro-life Democrats? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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