Key Guy Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: KeyGuy Laz, You obviously believe we haven't beaten ourselves up enough over our past. So for you a little more humility equates beating oneself up. Not so for me. Humility involves a recognition and acceptance of reality. I'm not asking for you to beat yourself up. Where is this coming from? ** Quote: You expect us to keep asking forgiveness... Who is "us"? You've done nothing to me, I don't know you! What have you done? You're feeling a guilt I have not placed upon you. This is stuff in your head or past conversations you have had with others, perhaps a movie or a book. Why do you feel need to argue against something that I have not said. *** Quote: In the process, you advocate a socialistic alternative and we simply cannot accept such a flawed, failed system. History proves the failure of socialism, yet that's a part of history you seem to ignore. Herein lies the problem, socialism is an idea that has been adapted modified used misused and abused. Of course communism (one form of socialism) failed in the Soviet Union. Aspects of socialism have worked and are still working in many countries in the world today. Universal health care works well for many millions in the world. Public education, Public roads, sewers, air traffic control etc. The US has sectors of the economy that could be private but it has chosen to make them public. Its has socialized certain aspects of the economy. That's a plain and obvious fact. The fact that you have a problem with the word "socialism" is I guess a product of your socialization. That's ok. Whose wallowing? I'm neither discouraged or dismayed. I'm sorry if this discussion has bought you to that place. It was not my intention. **** ** It's coming from your obsession with the history of slavery and other abuses from previous centuries *** I personally don't feel guilty for the past slavery and abuse scandals, in spite of your constant reminding. **** I do not agree with the vast majority of nationalized services that we suffer from. Most, if not all, federal, state and local programs and services are ridiculously inefficient and unable to stand on their own. Our federal obligations were originally put in-place to provide national security and control international commerce and trade. You can see that we are totally beyond that and still heading down this path. Rather than provide you with more facts concerning nationalized health care, I'll shut down. Enjoy your nap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 To all I am simply arguing for a little more humility an sophistication when extolling the virtues and the realities of American freedom and democracy. From its beginning the US was on the path of banning slavery. Context is everything. Slavery was practiced throughout the world when the US was founded and the US started out by banning it north of the Ohio River and ending the slave trade. So I think freedom was very much alive at the beginning of this nation. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 12, 2009 Of course it was...for the free people! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 12, 2009 Constant! Obcession! Reminding! LOL! Hmmm. Either someone is feeding a line or your or you're making stuff up because what I have posted does not rise to any of the above. And its ok that you don't want to deal with the substantive points and chose make your posts about me rather the opinions i present. Its a good escape route. I've used it on occasion. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 KeyGuys, This is little different than those that than those that accuse SDA's of making everything about the Sabbath, It will be brought up in a variety of ways and accusations. Any response is "See,you think the sabbath will save you" Same thing with the "freedom" issue here by a few. Most people do understand the US was and is not perfect,but it is the only country where that is anticipated. If that is of this grave concern over what the "white" people" did,I wouold love to here the feeling of knowing your own kinsmen sold you down the river to the evil whites Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 You cannot listen to Obama and read what he has to say and believe for one minute he is not going in strong socialist direction. Unless you *are* a socialist, in which case it seems like he's been moving steadily toward the right and has given in too much to the conservatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie You cannot listen to Obama and read what he has to say and believe for one minute he is not going in strong socialist direction. Unless you *are* a socialist, in which case it seems like he's been moving steadily toward the right and has given in too much to the conservatives. He hasn't given an inch towards conservatism. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 You expect us to keep asking forgiveness for:A: Sins we didn't commit (slavery is over!) Slavery may be officially over, but equal rights have only been around for about 40 years, and discrimination is still alive and well. I agree, things have improved racially but it really hasn't been that long - within our lifetimes and memories - since blacks were treated very poorly in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: carolaa Unless you *are* a socialist' date=' in which case it seems like he's been moving steadily toward the right and has given in too much to the conservatives. [/quote'] He hasn't given an inch towards conservatism. That's not true. The left wing is pretty dismayed, actually, at how much he has moved to the right. Healthcare and AIPAC come to mind, not to mention their disappointment at his reluctance to prosecute people from the Bush era, his going along with wiretapping and rendition. I understand it's all politics and he has to give in on things and make overtures to the right. But there are lots of people pretty upset about what they see as his betrayal of the values he professed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: KeyGuy You expect us to keep asking forgiveness for:A: Sins we didn't commit (slavery is over!) Slavery may be officially over, but equal rights have only been around for about 40 years, and discrimination is still alive and well. I agree, things have improved racially but it really hasn't been that long - within our lifetimes and memories - since blacks were treated very poorly in this country. Ok, for what, then, am I supposed to keep asking forgiveness? I'm older than 40, so what have I done and what am I doing that is an ongoing sin that requires my constant apologies. Clearly Laz is expecting some form of continual repentance from someone. Review his posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 I have not interpreted his posts as asking for apologies. Just acknowledgment. And possibly some understanding that the black population still has vivid memories of terrible discrimination that has affected how they see the world. It's a different view than you and I have. I'm not sure if we need to apologize for it or not, but I think the least we can do is try to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 I have not interpreted his posts as asking for apologies. Just acknowledgment. And possibly some understanding that the black population still has vivid memories of terrible discrimination that has affected how they see the world. It's a different view than you and I have. I'm not sure if we need to apologize for it or not, but I think the least we can do is try to understand. 1. Acknowledgment... how many times? Should my wife require me to continually acknowledge a past indiscretion (if I had one and repented of it)? Wouldn't that be damaging to our relationship? 2. Understanding that the blacks have vivid memories of discrimination... Vivid? If you're less than 40 (as was stated before), how can you have vivid memories of discrimination, unless someone keeps reminding you of how bad it WAS. Again, what help is that to relationships between races? 3. Different views than we have... Yes, I know that to be true. However, I have also discussed the tensions with a dear friend who has chosen to not subscribe to the distrust and anger that was taught to her as a child by her relatives. The key word is 'chosen'. You can choose to not hold resentments and grudges. I wonder who hasn't yet made that choice here on the forum? You CAN choose to forgive (a Christian thing to do). 4. I am sure we do not need to apologize. The constant requiring of 'acknowledgment' is wearing mighty thin. I find it to be more destructive than helpful. I can only suspect that it just may be the objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 15, 2009 Is was going to leave it but please post a quote where I asked for an apology or implied that you should make an apology. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Laz, If you weren't implying that apologies (or at least 'acknowledgments') are constantly necessary, then why is the vast majority of your comments about race, the abuses of the past, or the inequalities of the present? My point in all my comments on this thread is that I think we get it by now. Maybe I should have just said that and not expounded. I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 15, 2009 Laz, If you weren't implying that apologies (or at least 'acknowledgments') are constantly necessary, then why is the vast majority of your comments about race, the abuses of the past, or the inequalities of the present? My point in all my comments on this thread is that I think we get it by now. Maybe I should have just said that and not expounded. I'm done. I see that you can't supply quotes because there aren't any. This discussion was about socialism. You started the thread. I went on to suggest your characterization was not accurate. Comparing the US (apparently non-socialist system) with others I suggested that the "land of the free" was not so free and that many of these neglected freedoms were afforded to others in other countries that may have been despised as "socialist". Sorry, you're building a straw man. The vast majority of my comments in the thread have not been abut race etc. Like I said you are either being fed a line or making stuff up. Still you have not addressed the substantive points. Then all this "E-Whitey" stuff shows that you really don't get it but that you are irritated by having to even respond to the issue. That says more than you realize. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 1. Acknowledgment... how many times? Should my wife require me to continually acknowledge a past indiscretion (if I had one and repented of it)? Wouldn't that be damaging to our relationship?Good example! You should definitely continue to acknowledge and discuss it until she no longer feels the need to. It would be your responsibility to make sure she is given opportunity to work through the trauma you have caused. 2. Understanding that the blacks have vivid memories of discrimination... Vivid? If you're less than 40 (as was stated before), how can you have vivid memories of discrimination, unless someone keeps reminding you of how bad it WAS. Again, what help is that to relationships between races? It was roughly 40 years ago that blacks got civil rights, but discrimination continues to this day. Yes, it's better than it was, but there is still plenty of discrimination out there. 3. Different views than we have... Yes, I know that to be true. However, I have also discussed the tensions with a dear friend who has chosen to not subscribe to the distrust and anger that was taught to her as a child by her relatives. The key word is 'chosen'. You can choose to not hold resentments and grudges. I wonder who hasn't yet made that choice here on the forum? You CAN choose to forgive (a Christian thing to do). Forgiveness is a process, not just a choice. Some can work through it sooner than others, particularly if they have not suffered injustice directly. 4. I am sure we do not need to apologize. The constant requiring of 'acknowledgment' is wearing mighty thin. I find it to be more destructive than helpful. I can only suspect that it just may be the objective. No one is saying you need to apologize, but your unwillingness to understand is very clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 WARNING: I'M CROSSING THE LINE OF GOOD TASTE Forgiveness is a process, not just a choice. Some can work through it sooner than others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 What is there about the word socialism that assures so many that it will be a level playing field with all treated equally? That is impossible by the very fact that money is taken from one group that we are sure came by it dishonestly and gives to many not willing to work as hard. Even with those that work hard and still just eke out a living,where does the fairness factor come in by taking mine and giving to another? Freedom means just that. The freedom to succeed,the freedom to fail,even abuse of the freedoms can not be avoided in a free country. Was freedom fairly experienced by all? Nope. Socialism will cure this how? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 You're right, that's not in very good taste. It actually seemed kinda wierd, considering no one has asked you to apologize. I'm not sure what all that rant was about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 Quote: You're right, that's not in very good taste. It actually seemed kinda wierd, considering no one has asked you to apologize. I'm not sure what all that rant was about. I'm off of my meds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 17, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 17, 2009 You're right, that's not in very good taste. It actually seemed kinda wierd, considering no one has asked you to apologize. I'm not sure what all that rant was about. It's called projecting, we all do it from time to time. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Quote: =carolaa]You're right, that's not in very good taste. It actually seemed kinda wierd, considering no one has asked you to apologize. I'm not sure what all that rant was about. It's called projecting, we all do it from time to time. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted May 17, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 17, 2009 You give a pretty good example of that by inserting where you can that many in the US were not free. Sorry Bonnie your mistaken as regards to the frequency. Don't fall into the trap of trying to attack me rather than dealing with the arguments. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: bonnie You give a pretty good example of that by inserting where you can that many in the US were not free. Sorry Bonnie your mistaken as regards to the frequency. Don't fall into the trap of trying to attack me rather than dealing with the arguments. If you see a disagreement with you as an attack that is to bad. Disagreeing and believing you do insert those type of statements is not attacking you Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 There are also many that like to drop phrases that will lead to that kind of response and then say whatever are you talking about.You give a pretty good example of that by inserting where you can that many in the US were not free. I think most people if not all are aware of that and why. If this was not something that was always uppermost in your mind in certain discussions you would not be bringing it with the frequency you do So it's not just me!! ...whew... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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