Iran's Ahmadinejad wants to debate Obama at UN

[bonnie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict)

In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Palestinian militant groups have recruited minors to attack Israeli targets, both military and civilian, especially during the al-Aqsa Intifada. In some cases these attacks have been suicidal in nature. This deliberate involvement of children in armed conflict has been condemned by international organisations and certain Palestinian groups.[1][2]

[bonnie]

http://www.ecaar.org/Newsletter/Nov04/saleh.htm

Historically, various Palestinian groups have sent fighters on one-way missions involving extraordinary risk. For instance, in May 1990, the Abu al-Abbas organization dispatched 17 heavily armed Palestinians to an attack on Tel Aviv’s Nizanim beach, where eventually four were killed and the rest captured. Moreover, during the First Intifada, Israel experienced a spate of stabbing attacks, or what was then labeled as a “war of knives;” in one such incident, three Palestinians boarded a Tel Aviv bus in December 1990 and stabbed numerous passengers before being all killed or arrested.1 How-ever, the emergence of suicidal operations disturbed observers far more due to their devastating effectiveness and the readiness of the attacker to face eminent death. Suicide attacks combine elements of both material and psychological warfare. The bomber creates devastation and the message conveys desperation.

The first suicide attack ascribed to the Palestinian cause occurred on 16 April 1993, when a car bomb exploded near Mechola in the Jordan Valley. Between then and March 2004, 139 suicidal-attack incidents attributed to Palestinian operators transpired against Israeli targets (Figure 1). Between 1993 and September 2000, 27 suicide missions claimed 120 of the 290 Israeli deaths attributed to Palestinian attacks; since then, 112 suicide bombings have accounted for 474 of 918 Israeli Second Intifada fatalities while wounding more than 3,000, despite composing less than 1 percent of all violent incidents.2 These tallies do not include failed suicide operations (i.e. attacks intercepted by security forces or crippled by device failure); the number of attempted attacks is thus higher.

[carolaa]

Thank you for clearing that up. Do you know why the Palestinians were attacking Israel in these ways?

[bonnie]

Thank you for clearing that up. Do you know why the Palestinians were attacking Israel in these ways?

I read what was said. While you or others may believe that Palestinians have not and will not do anything dishonorable,I don't subscribe to that afre what I had read

[bonnie]

I read several of the same type of information as this gives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

I have not found anything that says Israel uses children that blows them to pieces as a means of war. Seems they might even deliberately targeting civilans

Quote:

Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army.[7]

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

Thank you for clearing that up. Do you know why the Palestinians were attacking Israel in these ways?

I read what was said. While you or others may believe that Palestinians have not and will not do anything dishonorable,I don't subscribe to that afre what I had read

I don't think I ever insinuated that. On the other hand, it sounds like you have a pretty one-sided view of things.

[carolaa]

I have not found anything that says Israel uses children that blows them to pieces as a means of war. Seems they might even deliberately targeting civilans

OK, well, I'm glad to know there is a difference between killing children and.....killing children.

[carolaa]

So...does anyone know why Ahmedinejad wants to debate Obama?

[carolaa]

....just to get back on topic.....

[fccool]

Bonnie,

There's a difference between Israeli "sane" army targeting hospitals and water plants... and a couple of desperate "tipped over the edge" Palestinians blowing themselves up. The first one is an act of aggression, the second one is act of desperation as reaction to such aggression.

I guess I have to clear up a couple of things for you. The Israeli today are not necessarily the descendants of Israel... but traditionalists. It's like pulling a black people from Canada or France and calling him African.

Israeli are not necessarily Jews and Jews are not Israeli. In fact, there are plenty of Jewish organizations who oppose treatment of Palestinians by Israelis.

Evangelicals today jump on the "chosen people" bandwagon, calming that Jews are somehow more special than Arabs... and it's absolutely bogus for several reasons, and one of them is ... these people would have to trace their heritage 30-40 generations to be considered authentic Jews, due to diaspora being spread over huge geographic area and lasting for nearly 2 thousand years.

So, the reasons that US turns blind side on Israeli aggression are:

1) Evangelical votes

2) Destabilization of Middle East which benefits US

I don't think it has anything to do with fear of God... or even respect for the culture.

[bonnie]

Quote:

There's a difference between Israeli "sane" army targeting hospitals and water plants... and a couple of desperate "tipped over the edge" Palestinians blowing themselves up. The first one is an act of aggression, the second one is act of desperation as reaction to such aggression.

Seems to me there has been more than a couple of over the edge suicide bombers.

I think the people that were blown to bits by the suicide bomber may have a different definition of aggression than you seem to,

In any event I have seen nothing yet that gives me a picture of sane,peace loving Palestinians and out of control aggressive Israeli's.

Quote:

I guess I have to clear up a couple of things for you. The Israeli today are not necessarily the descendants of Israel... but traditionalists. It's like pulling a black people from Canada or France and calling him African.

That may be your assessment. I don't think I gave an opinion one way or another as to....The Israeli today are not necessarily the descendants of Israel... but traditionalists.

Quote:

Israeli are not necessarily Jews and Jews are not Israeli. In fact, there are plenty of Jewish organizations who oppose treatment of Palestinians by Israelis.

I would like to see an honest and as unbiased opinion as possible. Otherwise what you are telling me can be what fits your idea.

I never felt it necessary to determine all Israeli's are in fact descendants of Israel. Not even sure why that is important.

Quote:

Evangelicals today jump on the "chosen people" bandwagon, calming that Jews are somehow more special than Arabs... and it's absolutely bogus for several reasons, and one of them is ... these people would have to trace their heritage 30-40 generations to be considered authentic Jews, due to diaspora being spread over huge geographic area and lasting for nearly 2 thousand years.

What do I care what Evangelicals believe and jump all over.

I didn't say they were more special. I said they were a resilient people,regardless if they are descendants of Israel or not.

If they were proven descendants of Israel it sounds as if you might have a different opinion.

I don't care if they belong to the Turnip family. As a people they have withstood much hardship and discrimination.Whose fault?? Don't know but find it tough to believe the peace loving Palestinians and suicide bombers are these meek timid people

Quote:

So, the reasons that US turns blind side on Israeli aggression are:

1) Evangelical votes

2) Destabilization of Middle East which benefits US

I don't think it has anything to do with fear of God... or even respect for the culture.

As I don't know why so I will trust that you are privy to that information.

As to whether you think it has anything to do with "fear of God" that is immaterial as well.

[phkrause]

Here's something that I got from CNN back in January of this year:

"Don't play into the deadly, cynical ploy of Hamas and blame Israel.

As Israel persists in its military efforts -- by ground, air and sea -- to protect its citizens from deadly Hamas rockets, and as protests against Israel increase around the world, the success of the abominable Hamas double war crime strategy becomes evident. The strategy is as simple as it is cynical: provoke Israel by playing Russian roulette with its children, firing rockets at kindergartens, playgrounds and hospitals; hide behind its own civilians when firing at Israeli civilians; refuse to build bunkers for its own civilians; have the TV cameras ready to transmit every image of dead Palestinians, especially children; exaggerate the number of civilians killed by including as "children" Hamas fighters who are 16 or 17 years old and as "women," female terrorists.

Hamas itself has a name for this. They call it "the CNN strategy" (this is not to criticize CNN or any other objective news source for doing its job; it is to criticize Hamas for exploiting the freedom of press which it forbids in Gaza). The CNN strategy is working because decent people all over the world are naturally sickened by images of dead and injured children. When they see such images repeatedly flashed across TV screens, they tend to react emotionally. Rather than asking why these children are dying and who is to blame for putting them in harms way, the average viewer, regardless of their political or ideological perspective, wants to see the killing stopped. They blame those whose weapons directly caused the deaths, rather than those who provoked the violence by deliberately targeting civilians. They forget the usual rules of morality and law.

For example, when a murderer takes a hostage and fires from behind his human shield, and a policeman, in an effort to stop the shooting accidentally kills the hostage, the law of every country holds the hostage taker guilty of murder even though the policeman fired the fatal shot. The same is true of the law of war. The use of human shields, in the way Hamas uses the civilian population of Gaza, is a war crime -- as is its firing of rockets at Israeli civilians. Every human shield that is killed by Israeli self defense measures is the responsibility of Hamas, but you wouldn't know that from watching the media coverage.

The CNN strategy seems to work better, at least in some parts of the world, against Israel that it would against other nations. There are many more protests -- and fury -- directed against Israel when it inadvertently kills fewer than 100 civilians in a just war of self defense, than against Arab and Muslim nations and groups that deliberately kill far more civilians for no legitimate reason. It isn't the nature of the victims, since more Arabs and Muslim civilians are killed every day in Africa and the Mid East by Arab and Muslim governments and groups with little or no protests. (For example, on the first day of Israel's ground attack, approximately 30 Palestinians, almost all Hamas combatants, were killed. On the same day an Islamic suicide bomber blew herself up in a mosque in Iraq, killing 40 innocent Muslims. No protests. Little media coverage.)

It isn't the nature of the killings, since Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing civilians -- if for no other reason than that it hurts their cause -- while Hamas does everything in its power to force Israel to kill Palestinian civilians by firing its missiles from densely populated civilian areas and refusing to build shelters for its civilians. It isn't the nature of the conflict, because Israel is fighting a limited war of self defense designed to protect its own civilians from rocket attacks, while most of those killed by Arabs and Muslims are killed in genocidal and tribal warfare with no legitimate aim. The world simply doesn't seem to care when Arabs and Muslims kill large numbers of other Arabs and Muslims, but a qualitatively different standard seems to apply when the Jewish state kills even a relatively small number of Muslims and Arabs in a war of self defense.

The international community doesn't even seem to care when Palestinian children are killed by rocket fire -- unless it is from Israeli rockets. The day before the recent outbreak, Hamas fired an anti-personnel rocket at Israeli civilians but the rocket fell short of its target and killed two Palestinian girls. Yet there was virtually no coverage and absolutely no protests against these "collateral" civilian deaths. Hamas refused to allow TV cameras to show these dead Palestinian children, who were killed by their own rockets. Nor have there been protests against the cold blooded murders by Hamas and its supporters of dozens of Palestinian civilians who allegedly "collaborated" withIsrael. Indeed Hamas and Fatah have killed far more Palestinian civilians over the past several years than have the Israeli, but you wouldn't know that from the media, the United Nations or protesters who focus selectively on only those deaths caused by Israeli military actions.

The protestors who fill the streets of London, Paris and San Francisco were nowhere to be seen when hundreds of Jewish children were murdered by Palestinian terrorists over the years.

Moreover, the number of civilians killed by Israel is almost always exaggerated. First, it widely assumed that if a victim is a "child" or a "woman", he or she is necessarily a civilian. Consider the following report in Thursday's NY Times: "Hospital officials in Gaza said that of the more than 390 people killed by Israeli fighter planes since Saturday, 38 were children and 25 women." Some of these children and women were certainly civilians but others were equally certainly combatants: Hamas often uses 14, 15, 16 and 17 year olds as well as women as terrorists. Israel is entitled, under international law, to treat these children and women as the combatants they have become. Hamas cannot, out of one side of its mouth, boast that it recruits children and women to become terrorists, and then, out of the other side of its mouth, complain when Israel takes them at their word. The media should look closely and critically at the number of claimed civilian victims before accepting self-serving and self-contradictory exaggerations.

By any objective count, the number of genuinely innocent civilians killed by the Israeli Air Force in Gaza is lower than the collateral deaths caused by any nation in a comparable situation. Hamas does everything in its power to provoke Israel into killing as many Palestinian civilians as possible, in order to generate condemnation against the Jewish state. They have gone so far as firing rockets from Palestinian schoolyards and hiding their terrorists in Palestinian maternity wards. Lest there be any doubt about the willingness of Hamas to expose their families to martyrdom, remember that the Hamas terrorist leader recently killed in an Israeli air attack sent his own son to be a suicide bomber and then refused to allow his family to leave their house even after learning that he and his house had been placed on the list of military targets.

Nor is this double standard -- applied to Israel on the one hand, and Arab and Muslim nations and groups on the other hand -- limited to the current situation in Gaza. It has provided an excuse for the international community to remain silent in the face of massive human rights violations including genocides perpetrated by Arabs and Muslims around the world for years. Many of those who protest Israeli self-defense actions remain silent in the face of real genocides -- such as that in Darfur.

The reality is that the elected and de facto government of Gaza has declared war against Israel. Under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter, they have committed an "armed attack" against the Jewish state. The Hamas charter calls for Israel's total destruction. Under international law, Israel is entitled to take whatever military action is necessary to repel that attack and stop the rockets. It must seek to minimize civilian deaths consistent with the legitimate military goal, and it is doing precisely that, despite Hamas efforts to maximize civilian deaths on both sides.

The best outcome for purposes of producing peace would be the destruction or substantial weakening of Hamas, which rejects the two-state solution. Israel and the Palestinian Authority could then agree on a peace that would end both the Israeli occupation and the rocketing of Israeli civilians.

This article can also be read at: "http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/The_Hamas_CNN_Strategy.asp"

pk

[fccool]

Bonnie... you speak about suicidal bombers, but ask yourself... why would people go blow themselves up? What would drive them to do that? If you look at Checha and Russia situation... you have the same one. Russia resorts to high tech overwhelming aggression against Chechna, which has no weapons... and the only way they can retaliate is by acts of desperation - terrorism.

Same with Israel - the forth strongest army in the world picking a fight with people who have sticks and stones for weapons... bulldozing their homes off. Do you think they'll just stand by and take it? And if you look at any TV coverage outside of US, you'd see at least some fair coverage of the other side. In the US you hear the same mantra over and over again... "bad suicide bombers"... "good IDF forces". Look for causes, and don't jump to conclusions... like Palestinians hate Israeli for no reason. There are reasons, and I doubt you know much about these.

[phkrause]

Well if that is correct than I guess the nazi had good reason to wipe out my father's whole, immediate, family except one brother who got away, and 6 million jews + millions of others!

pk

[bonnie]

Quote:

Bonnie... you speak about suicidal bombers, but ask yourself... why would people go blow themselves up? What would drive them to do that? If you look at Checha and Russia situation... you have the same one. Russia resorts to high tech overwhelming aggression against Chechna, which has no weapons... and the only way they can retaliate is by acts of desperation - terrorism.

Russia and Chechna are entirely different. I don't recall Chechna

sending in suicide bombers and blowing many to bits with themselves.

Quote:

Same with Israel - the forth strongest army in the world picking a fight with people who have sticks and stones for weapons... bulldozing their homes off. Do you think they'll just stand by and take it?

They seem to be fighting with some pretty lethal sticks. Nor from what I have read so far today is it a simple case of picking a fight with someone weaker.

I do wonder about the intelligence of those that go up against the 4th strongest army. I think I might try to find a way to stop the suicide bombers and the rockets that are being lobbed their way.

Quote:

And if you look at any TV coverage outside of US, you'd see at least some fair coverage of the other side. In the US you hear the same mantra over and over again... "bad suicide bombers"... "good IDF forces". Look for causes, and don't jump to conclusions... like Palestinians hate Israeli for no reason. There are reasons, and I doubt you know much about these.

I do not need to look for causes. Leaders of terrorist groups like Hamas are cowards. Perfectly willing to send others to a horrible death while they keep their little backsides safe and Say "good job" whilel grooming the next suicide bomber

[carolaa]

Quote:

Israeli are not necessarily Jews and Jews are not Israeli. In fact, there are plenty of Jewish organizations who oppose treatment of Palestinians by Israelis.

I would like to see an honest and as unbiased opinion as possible. Otherwise what you are telling me can be what fits your idea.

I never felt it necessary to determine all Israeli's are in fact descendants of Israel. Not even sure why that is important.

It is important because the primary reason for why the country of Israel even exists is because it was supposed to be for the Jews to have a "homeland." But so many settlers have come in, and they are the main ones causing the tensions, but Israel will not try to get them under control.

It seems like it would be far easier for Israel to get its settlers under control than for the Palestinians to get Hamas under control.

[carolaa]

I do not need to look for causes. Leaders of terrorist groups like Hamas are cowards. Perfectly willing to send others to a horrible death while they keep their little backsides safe and Say "good job" whilel grooming the next suicide bomber

But it might be good to find out why the Palestinians are so upset that they would elect a party like Hamas to be in control.

[Bravus]

Can't convince the convinced...

[bonnie]

Can't convince the convinced...

Reading a number of your posts over time is this something that dscribes you as well?

[phkrause]

Well maybe we should also find out why the Israelis are so upset with the Palestinians! Here is a link of at least one reason that was sent to me awhile back, something I had not known, and was not aware of. Check this out. http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-050802.html

pk

[bonnie]

[quoteWell maybe we should also find out why the Israelis are so upset with the Palestinians! Here is a link of at least one reason that was sent to me awhile back, something I had not known, and was not aware of. Check this out. http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-050802.html

pk

[carolaa]

Well maybe we should also find out why the Israelis are so upset with the Palestinians! Here is a link of at least one reason that was sent to me awhile back, something I had not known, and was not aware of. Check this out. http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-050802.html

I'm sorry, I really don't know how to respond to these highly biased websites. Of course, they are going to spew out propaganda.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Well maybe we should also find out why the Israelis are so upset with the Palestinians! Here is a link of at least one reason that was sent to me awhile back, something I had not known, and was not aware of. Check this out. http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-050802.html

I'm sorry, I really don't know how to respond to these highly biased websites. Of course, they are going to spew out propaganda.

Are you claiming you have all unbiased websites?

Be interesting to see them

[carolaa]

What would be interesting is to see some actual facts instead of propaganda.

[bonnie]

What would be interesting is to see some actual facts instead of propaganda.

Personally I think you are ducking. Any link you have not posted is propaganda.

That is why I was interested in wikipedia links.

Another has me curious http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0227/p17s01-cogn.html

Is the amount of aid listed propaganda and the Palestinians have really not received this?

If they have can someone explain what would be needed to aid the Palestinians in a thriving and viable country?