Guest Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Remember the messianic chapter in Isaiah (53) We focused on it a bit in last week's SS lesson. "3": He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. I was studying the SS lesson this week and meditating on the themes and another light bulb came on. The verse is still true and it applies to the church. Matt 24 "24": For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The deception IN the church is regarding who Jesus is and what He expects. It also encroaches on the fiction that one thinks that they love Jesus. Jesus seems to be a wonderful adorable savior...that is until he comes and stays at your house for more than a week. It is fairly easy to tolerate a guest for a couple hours a week. Think of family or relatives visiting...ya know how it is when they are there for extended stays?? What are the hints that reveal the hostility, animosity, and recoiling toward the person of Jesus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 JimBob, At first I felt inclined to approach this by challenging you with whether you meant to imply that if one's Jesus is not a jerk, one is not worshipping the "right" Jesus. That if one is not encountering a harsh, exacting taskmaster -- or a rude, intrusive "jerk" -- they are not encountering the Living God. Then I paused (or maybe the Spirit of God paused me) and realized that would be jumping to conclusions, so I have decided instead to ASK you -- would you like to share what you meant by those statements? What kind of Jesus do you think people should be encountering on that more-than-a-few-hours-weekly basis? What kind of Jesus is this not-so-adorable wonderful savior? What do you think makes Jesus "hard to live with" as you hinted (regarding prolonged guest stays & getting on with relatives, etc.)? When I read Isaiah 53:3 and apply it to today, I tend to think of the popular cliques and their expectations that Jesus would be one of them. I'd like to shove it in their faces that Jesus could just as easily have been physically unattractive, a "nerd", a "goody two shoes", or in some other way one of the "outcast" group instead of the in-group. I think it's important for ALL of us to know that Jesus doesn't come with the coin of man's realm, so to speak, to recommend Him, but with the coin of the Heavenly, if you get my drift. His is the REAL mintage of the heart, of the interior substance of His Being, not how good He looked or how witty He could be or how far He could kick a ball or how much He could show off to the lads. Y'know? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nico, I need to run to SS Thanks for the reply and your post was a good elaboration.. Look at the latter part of the verse where Isaiah..says "we". Then refer to Rom 8:7 Jer 17:9.. Think of why a prophet is slain and the reaction to a prophet in the bible. Think of the doctrinal controversies in the church..not just SDA. Think of my homiletic tirade/rant on this site. Think of the reverence issues I bring up (cellphones , noise in the church).. Look atTuesday's lesson for today and the contoversy regarding the theme. Think of what Satan claims regarding the law of God Clues.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2005 Think about Jesus more as your beloved: I could spend all day, every day, 24/7/365/three-score-and-ten-plus-another-two-score, with my Suzie and enjoy every moment. And Jesus is more loving than that. He (and she) encourages me to become more than I am and do better, but I want to, I'm not nagged to. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Bravus have you ever seen As Good as it Gets with Jack Nicholson playing the OCD guy? When he tells Helen Hunt's character, "You make me want to be a better man," to me that sums up the essence of Love -- especially in light of what a completely difficult life this man leads and how his condition so completely isolates him from successfully interfacing with "normal" society, etc. Well, love, to me, is what makes me want to be a better whatever -- person, woman, wife, girlfriend, friend, helper, mother, sister, daughter -- you name it. Love is what makes me want to be better than I am, and not a bit because I "have to". It's because I WANT to. That's what I'm looking for in a God -- Someone who can put that Want To in my heart. Do you think that's how Jesus works with us? By putting the "Want To" there? p.s. your love for your wife really shines in your posts whenever you mention her! it's nice to see a man still "delighting himself in the wife of his youth" at our age. ... restores one's faith in human nature (at least, as intended by God to be, that is). Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2005 Thanx, Nico - it rocks to be crazy in love with my wife! JimBob, it's a great concept though: "If Jesus came to stay at my house". (No! NO reality TV show!) I think, simply put, he'd surprise and challenge any one of us by the things He's comfortable with and the things he challenges us to change. There'd definitely be times when he'd be surprisingly hardline around us liberal relativists. And there'd be times when some of the more hardline humans would call *Him* a liberal relativist! He'd be comfortable with things that make us uncomfortable - remember, this is the guy who partied with the whores and drunks, and I guarantee you those parties didn't turn all G-rated just because He was there. I suspect we'd turn off the TV, not so much because we were ashamed of what was on, but because it was more interesting and more fun to talk to Him. I'm not sure where this 'prickly, hard to live with' notion of Jesus comes from - yes, He always challenged people to grow, learn, choose life, be saved. But remember He was always surrounded by a crowd of people who had dropped what they were doing and just couldn't stand to not be with Him. He was surrounded by kids playing and just enjoying being with Him. People were sending messengers across the country to get Him to come to their village. Doesn't seem to me like he was all prickly and censorious and a pain to be around ... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted January 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2005 Does anyone here remember the old poem/record of "If Jesus Came to Your House" ? It asks about all the changes "you" would have to make before you would be comfortable with Him there - the magazines and books to be put some place else, etc. Obviously "you" would be feeling you had to be on your best behaviour and that is hard for an hour, let alone a week. So the problem is not that Jesus would be prickly or whatever, but on what standards "you" felt you had to keep up while He was there. And that would make "you" very prickly indeed. On the other hand, when the feeling for Jesus is as Bravus describes - a bit like the joy in the presence of a loved spouse - those perceived necessary standards are not the driving force. They are overridden by the continual delight in His presence. That is how I read this topic anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Hey Nan isn't that kind of like the Mary/Martha split? Martha thinking she had to be the perfect hostess, show the best courtesy and impeccable manners not to mention diligence, etc. -- while Mary just wants to hang out and listen to the cascading waters of life flowing from the Master's lips, tasting the joy of His presence. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Refer to SSL #5 Monday for additional insight. I used Jer 17:9 and Rom 8:7 in yesterday's SS class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted January 24, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 24, 2005 Yes Nico that is a good way of putting it. And on a personal level I always felt more like a Martha than a Mary - which lesson is not lost on me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Don't feel bad, hon. I have the heart of a Mary but the nervous reactions of a Martha. I think most Marthas are like that. We have the same heart as a Mary, we just get all skittered in the head over things. I don't read Jesus' answer to Martha as a total rebuke either, but as comfort. Remember He said, "You are anxious and troubled about many things." Think of Him saying that kindly, with understanding in His eyes, and then when He says "Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken from her," see that as Him inviting you to do so as well! He's saying, "I know this is what you really want -- so come join us, and fear not that I will think any less of you for it." In other words, He is saying, "It's OK to relax with Me." Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 There is another factor here...what is Jesus really like..but for the most part...those who are in the know have clues as to their honest attitude toward Jesus. I am elaborating on the SS thread. I pasted a quote from Monday. JOHN 15 "18": If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. "19": If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. "20": Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. "21": But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. "22": If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. "23": He that hateth me hateth my Father also. "24": If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. "25": But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. Think of the queen in Snow White hating Snow White and becoming a witch and killing her Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 True JimBob, but remember also that the world hates other things besides Jesus. In general the world hates a braggart, a boaster, a self-righteous stuck-up egotist, and any number of overweening and overmuchly visible objectionable traits in others that members of said "world" freely tolerate in moderation in themselves. Thus persecution alone is insufficient grounds for considering oneself in such noble service to the Master as to warrant a fulfillment of the above verses in his own experience thereof. One must of necessity examine oneself thoroughly and objectively in the matter to see whether there be fault in the messenger which eclipses the message. But you and I, we've been through that And this is not our fate So let us not talk falsely now The hour's getting late. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Quote: The deception IN the church is regarding who Jesus is and what He expects. It also encroaches on the fiction that one thinks that they love Jesus. This is the theme of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 True, however you are on a tangent. There is deception in the church regarding the gospel that is due to shallow soteriology...and it is connected to enmity and that enmity is in the same places as it always has been. That enmity is what results in lack of reverence, NFDMTTS, and spiritual apathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Quote: Quote: The deception IN the church is regarding who Jesus is and what He expects. It also encroaches on the fiction that one thinks that they love Jesus. This is the theme of this thread. Then maybe instead of vague hints and mysterious whispers (2 Cor 4:2-3) you should spell out precisely what it is you believe Jesus expects, who He is, and what precisely constitutes the "fiction" of which you speak. Soooo ... "put up or shut up" (*she says in a friendly way*) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted January 25, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> In other words, He is saying, "It's OK to relax with Me." <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Sometimes hard to remember that when things are pushing in from all sides but yes you are right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> (and today has been an OK one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I was just reminded of another scripture: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - Matthew 11:28. I guess He really wants us to be at ease with Him! Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Rest.. He does...but how? and what does come unto Him mean? and why does the Holy Spirit inspire Matthew to put these words right before a major sabbath encounter in chapter 12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Other non Christian persuasion demonstrate their animosity toward God by depersonalizing Him..saying that God is energy. Christianity goes down a similar path by depersonalizing what the gospel is about. When soteriology is emphasized with accounting and legal terms it is depersonalized. When expiation is related to wrath and and a Godly attitude adjustment..then it is depersonalized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Quote: Rest.. He does...but how? and what does come unto Him mean? Not to be glib, but it means just what it says: come to Him. For us today it means turn to Him in prayer and the reading of His word. The verses that follow this invitation expound a bit more by inviting us to swap our yoke or burden for His and "learn of Him." His way brings rest to our souls. Then when we work for Him there is a lightness to what we do that isn't there when we are laboring unto ourselves for only our own ends. That doesn't mean those ends are evil or illegitimate -- Paul said something like "if a man does not work he should not eat" -- but by themselves these ends are burdensome. When we labor for the Master we have His care to rely upon; His strong arm to uphold us. And as far as our daily duties as human beings in family, workplace, society go, everything we do may be consecrated to Him and be done for Him and as unto Him. When we clean house, tend babies, tend gardens, tend loved ones, do our paperwork or web sites or architectural planning or doctoring or lawyering, cabinetry or car repair, it all may be done to His glory as unto Him in service. Quote: and why does the Holy Spirit inspire Matthew to put these words right before a major sabbath encounter in chapter 12? Good question -- let's discuss -- though I would not presume to speak for the Holy Spirit in terms of why She(kinah) does as She(kinah) does. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Quote: Other non Christian persuasion demonstrate their animosity toward God by depersonalizing Him..saying that God is energy. Christianity goes down a similar path by depersonalizing what the gospel is about. When soteriology is emphasized with accounting and legal terms it is depersonalized. Very good point, JB. I don't quite get the last one though, can you explain a bit further please? I KIND OF get it but need more fill-out on it ... I gather you're talking about the notion of Jesus changing the mind of a ticked-off Father God by dying but I really need you to spell it out in detail for me. Quote: When expiation is related to wrath and and a Godly attitude adjustment..then it is depersonalized. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 When the shallow gospel, that is preached, guts the relational, emotional, heartfelt and detailed cognitive elements out then there is lack of appreciation for it. I am going to post tidbits because that is the way it is revealed to me. When the language is shallow and also forensic/legal..it lacks the power that the gospel is supposed to have.. look at what was in the beginning...the animal was slain and Adam and Eve were told the gospel...but part was about the enmity..remember? Much about the enmity is ignored.... Look at why Joseph didn't have illicit relations with Potipher's wife. Eph 4 "30": And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Heb 1 "9": Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Verse 9 "hated" reveals the enmity. The gospel deals with the enmity, against righteousness, of the carnal/fleshy human. Usually the gospel is preached...God loved the world..and died to pay for our sins or the penalty for sin and we respond by loving him for this... well yeah...but...love is something that grows in knowledge and discernment. I was speaking to a programmer about a quote in last week's lesson where God has an answer for the sin emergency... I said when he is called in he fixes a bug.. some say, well he fixes a problem with computer. One who understand C+ language and knows that he has to look through thousands of lines of code will appreciate his fixing the problem verses some window washer or oil change mechanic..who never did any computer programming and more later.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The religious persuasion of the Jewish CLERGY was one of burdensome, exacting, oppressive legalism that all went to maintain carnality and prop/puff it up... It is a toilsome life when one has to be constantly on guard for their reputation and status in life..to be #1 and a big shot..to be esteemed highly and flattered or praised. Jesus showed what was to be great..a compassionate sensitive servant of others...to do all one can to be a person who tries to share an abundant life truth message and maximize what life has to offer for others...to please God by doing justice, loving mercy and living humbly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The gospel is not for dealing with the wrath of God...it is a plan/method for human restoration/character transformation to be able to live harmony with others in heaven/universe/new earth. Take the most respected SDA workers/staff/media darlings...and let them maintain human enmity toward righteousness and put them in heaven... Just another penal colony like Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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