Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held

[John317]

Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held

By ROXANA HEGEMAN, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 45 mins ago

WICHITA, Kan. – Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.

The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was detained some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.

Although Stolz refused to release the man's name, Johnson County sheriff's spokesman Tom Erickson identified the detained man as Scott Roeder. He has not been charged in the slaying and was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.

Court records and Internet postings show that someone using the name Scott Roeder has a criminal past and has expressed anti-abortion opinions on sympathetic Web sites.

Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.

The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."

Stolz said all indications were that the gunman acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.

Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.

Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement.

"Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

But Randall Terry, a veteran anti-abortion activist who founded Operation Rescue and whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood."

At Tiller's church, Adam Watkins, 20, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service.

"We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.

Another usher came in and told the congregation to remain seated, then escorted Tiller's wife out. "When she got to the back doors, we heard her scream, and so we knew something bad had happened," Watkins said.

President Barack Obama said he was "shocked and outraged" by the murder. "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," he said.

Reformation Lutheran Church held a special service Sunday evening. Dr. Michael Bates, who has known Tiller for more than 25 years, described it as a simple service featuring Bible readings. Reporters were kept out.

At a vigil in downtown Wichita that attracted a few hundred people, about 10 protesters from Topeka's Westboro Baptist Church held signs emblazoned with such messages as "Abortion is bloody murder" and "Baby killer in hell." The church is known for picketing military funerals.

The protesters and about 20 Tiller supporters shouted at each other. A large number of police officers stood by to make sure the scene stayed under control.

Tiller had in the past endured threats and violence. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.

In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.

In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.

Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.

Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, issued a statement praising Tiller's commitment.

"Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.

The doctor's violent death was the latest in a string of shootings and bombings over two decades directed against abortion clinics, doctors and staff.

The last killing of an abortion doctor was in October 1998 when Dr. Barnett Slepian was fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. A militant abortion opponent was convicted of the murder.

Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.

Someone named Scott Roeder, then 38, was charged in Topeka, Kan., in 1996 with criminal use of explosives for having bomb components in his car trunk and sentenced to 24 months of probation. However, his conviction was overturned on appeal the next year after a higher court said evidence against Roeder was seized by law enforcement officers during an illegal search of his car.

At the time, police said the FBI had identified Roeder as a member of the anti-government Freemen group, an organization that kept the FBI at bay in Jordan, Mont., for almost three months in 1995-96.

Someone posting to the Web site of Operation Rescue in May 2007 used the name "Scott Roeder" in response to a scheduled vigil to "pray for an end to George R. Tiller's late-term abortion business."

"Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp," the posting read. "Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller."

[bonnie]

HEY JOHN317

WELL this is a sad story

dgrimm60

Within the same time frame a Muslim shot and killed one and injured another because he hated our military.

The killing of a man that killed many babies that were viable by injecting drugs into their hearts while still in the womb is mourned and an entire group,pro-life members are critized and blamed. Heightened protection has been supplied for abortion clinics.

Has there been the same blame and responsibility leveled at Muslims as a whole and extra protection services being supplied

to military recruiting offices? If not why not?

[carolaa]

Apples & oranges. One difference is that the prolife movement has a history of bombings, shootings, and killings. I don't think the Muslim community has a history of attacking recruiting centers. Another difference is that the military has the capability to protect itself, and maybe they would be wise to provide more personnel at the recruiting centers. But, seriously, who is the government going to send in to protect the military? They can handle it themselves.

[bonnie]

Apples & oranges. One difference is that the prolife movement has a history of bombings, shootings, and killings. I don't think the Muslim community has a history of attacking recruiting centers. Another difference is that the military has the capability to protect itself, and maybe they would be wise to provide more personnel at the recruiting centers. But, seriously, who is the government going to send in to protect the military? They can handle it themselves.

The lives of two men taken by fanatics is apples and apples.

If I recall correctly it was part of the Muslim community that did quite a bit of damage on 9/11.

Those that blame right wing conservatives for the killing of Dr Tiller can't really escape the muslim world and that part of the muslim world that desires and does kill americans.

I believe the fanatical fringe of muslims encourages the taking of american lives and gives the tempting "eternal life with many virgins"

That probably is acceptable to many as I am sure a case can be made for killing the recruit

[carolaa]

I'm not making excuses for the killings of the recruits. You are putting lots of words in my mouth today.

[bonnie]

I'm not making excuses for the killings of the recruits. You are putting lots of words in my mouth today.

No I didn't. I did not say you felt it was alright that the recruit was killed.

You said the comparison was was apple and oranges. It isn't, it is apples and apples. Both killed by nutcase fanatics. One nutcase is because of right wing conservative pro-life and their stand against this man.

The other was killed by another nutcase. A muslim that hated our military. The hard line muslims and all those that hate our military should be held as responsible for the death of this recruit as those that are pro-life are being held responsible by many for killing the Dr

[carolaa]

Like I said, Muslims don't have a history of attacking military recruiting centers. Adding protection to targets with a history of being attacked is quite different.

I don't see it as a matter of holding any particular group responsible. It's just protecting targets that have a history of being attacked. It makes sense that pretty much the only ones attacking clinics that do abortions would be anti-abortionists. But it doesn't make sense to say that the only group of people who might attack a military recruiting center would be Muslims.

[bonnie]

Like I said, Muslims don't have a history of attacking military recruiting centers. Adding protection to targets with a history of being attacked is quite different.

I don't see it as a matter of holding any particular group responsible. It's just protecting targets that have a history of being attacked. It makes sense that pretty much the only ones attacking clinics that do abortions would be anti-abortionists. But it doesn't make sense to say that the only group of people who might attack a military recruiting center would be Muslims.

It does make sense tho that hard line muslims hate us and the military. He converted to a "religion" that not only thinks killing americans is fine it is praise worthy.

This man hated the american military by all accounts as the killer of the Dr hated him for doing abortions.

Whether they need protection or not is really not the major issue.

One group is condemned right along with the one that killed the DR for being responsible. The other nutcase and those that hate the military are not.

These two acts are almost identical in reason and purpose. Hate by two nutcase fanatics

One has been on the news non-stop. The life of the young recruit comes in a far distant second

[carolaa]

I think the difference is the target. We have a target that has a history of being attacked as opposed to a target that has rarely if ever been attacked. Not only that, but the 2nd target is already backed up by a system that is well able to protect itself. And perhaps they will look into that now.

Honestly, though, I believe there will be just as many people blaming Muslims for the soldier's killing as there are people blaming anti-abortionists for the doctor's killing. Just give it a day or two and Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter or the mass emails will be right on it.

[bonnie]

I think the difference is the target. We have a target that has a history of being attacked as opposed to a target that has rarely if ever been attacked. Not only that, but the 2nd target is already backed up by a system that is well able to protect itself. And perhaps they will look into that now.

Honestly, though, I believe there will be just as many people blaming Muslims for the soldier's killing as there are people blaming anti-abortionists for the doctor's killing. Just give it a day or two and Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter or the mass emails will be right on it.

[Bravus]

*cough*misdirection*cough*

[bonnie]

*cough*misdirection*cough*

Sorry you have a cough. No there is no misdirection.

Two men killed by two nutcase fanatics. One is a military recruit,another injured. Both by a man that converted to Islam.

He hated the american military from news accounts. He shot two totally innocent men. Hardline muslims hate and have killed thousands of innocent americans . The killing of americans is encouraged and cheered by many muslims.

It is by comparison,hardly newsworthy. A few short bleeps on the news.

The abortion Dr killed by a fanatical "pro-life". The right wing,conservative pro life is credited with being partly responsible. Non-stop news coverage. As Carol said wait a few days for Limbaugh,Coulter etc will cover it. It is not aan important issue to mainstream news and we have to patient and let the right wing cover it.

Fanatical nutcases shot individuals that represented what they hate.

There is no difference except one is important enough for non-stop coverage and one isn't.

The same hate was responsible for the death of both men.

It is politically correct to blame and rant and rave about the death of this abortion DR.

It is not politically correct to rant and rave about muslims,even extremist muslims in our country. We may offend them.

It is politically correct to kill a baby inside the mother. When that same baby is inconveniently born alive but maimed for her short life why isn't it politically correct to smother her? Or to inject the drug used for the failed attempt after the induced labor

A caring nurse and her husband adopted her and loved her till she passed away. If this was not a baby,a little innocent human being that had a failed attempt on her life what was she?

[bonnie]

It is interesting that several sites praising Dr Tiller give this when clicking on the link.

This site is temporarily offline.

Please be respectful of their privacy.

[bonnie]

*cough*misdirection*cough*

Our local news this morning carried more information on the man that shot the recruiter's.

He converted to Islam and it appears he went to Yemen for training and then came back to the US.

It was found he had a hit list. Jewish centers ,a day care,recruiting centers,a Baptist church and post offices across the US. A thought was stated as to whether this man was acting alone because of the distances involved.

The local radio talk show had some interesting calls. Not one "peace loving muslim" called in to condemn this. They did manage to say,"altho what he did was wrong you have to understand why there are those that hate you". One likened it to PTS like some american soldiers suffer from and do unexplained acts.

Earlier this morning on the same talk show there were several calls concerning the man that killed the DR and pro-life,right wing. Calling for regulations to control how much pro-life and right wing radio hosts can say as they have part of the responsibility for the good Dr's death.

Pro-life advocates and all off right wing radio has condemned the actions of this fanatic. Not one that I have heard has offered a "yeah,it was wrong,but you need to understand"

[there buster]

Quote:

*cough*misdirection*cough*

This tactic comes up whenever the evidence doesn't favor the leftist approach.

We have two parallel cases.

Two murders in public places.

Because one target is a left-wing icon, everyone who disagreed with what he did must be to blame, even though virtually all the anti-abortion organizations and prominent individuals condemned the killing.

AND outspoken opponents of the favored left wing practice must somehow be responsible.

The other victim is part of the military, which the left-wing hates, so, the subtext is, he got what he deserved.

AND outspoken left-wing opponents of the military, even ones like Obama's buddy William Ayers, who actually bombed military installations (those seldom-attacked places which are often subjected to demonstrations, and banned from many 'free-speech' leftist universities), could NEVER be responsible.

*cough*misdirection*cough* Indeed. What it means is, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. You're supposed to believe what we tell you."

[carolaa]

One reason why perhaps the doctor's case is getting more attention is because he was quite well known and had been the target of attacks before.

[bonnie]

One reason why perhaps the doctor's case is getting more attention is because he was quite well known and had been the target of attacks before.

What is more well known than the successful attacks on our land by hard line muslims. Now we have another muslim killing out of twisted hatred. Along with additional targets being found. Of no concern it seems by many is the Jewish centers,baptist church and a day care.

As you suggested we need to be patient and wait for the right wing media to address this. That clearly indicates a lack of interest or concern as to the "muslims" ready and willing to kill.

The right wing media so scorned many times here has come out strong against the man that killed the abortion DR. No half hearted tepid response. No,"it was wrong but you have to understand".

Flat out it was wrong.

There was nothing to indicate they were waiting on the left wing and mainstream media to pick up on it.

Can you imagine the uproar that would have been caused by the right wing media calling for restrictions on "muslims" and the left wing media. Can you imagine right wing media calling for restrictions on the left wing media and what they should be allowed to say in defense of muslims??

There simply is no balance. Looking at a "muslim" that has been to Yemen for training and carrying a target list,including innocent children in a day care causes me a whole lot more concern than the man that killed the Dr.

The man that killed the Dr will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

The "Muslim" will be understood and we will be reminded how "peace loving" Muslims" really are

[Bravus]

It's misdirection because *this* thread was never about the recruitment shootings. Read the thread title. Bringing up that issue is misdirection because it is a way for conservatives to avoid saying this:

"It was sinful, illegal and morally wrong to murder that doctor in his church".

Argue about the morality of what he did all you like, but say that, clearly and unequivocally. Or you have no moral standing.

[bonnie]

It's misdirection because *this* thread was never about the recruitment shootings. Read the thread title. Bringing up that issue is misdirection because it is a way for conservatives to avoid saying this:

"It was sinful, illegal and morally wrong to murder that doctor in his church".

[bonnie]

If it didn't suit your purpose to hint or indicate I was unwilling to denounce what the man that killed the DR did,you may have taken a clue from some things I did say.

Quote:

These two acts are almost identical in reason and purpose. Hate by two nutcase fanatics

One has been on the news non-stop. The life of the young recruit comes in a far distant second

Quote:

Fanatical nutcases shot individuals that represented what they hate.

There is no difference except one is important enough for non-stop coverage and one isn't.

The same hate was responsible for the death of both men.

Quote:

Pro-life advocates and all off right wing radio has condemned the actions of this fanatic. Not one that I have heard has offered a "yeah,it was wrong,but you need to understand"

Quote:

The right wing media so scorned many times here has come out strong against the man that killed the abortion DR. No half hearted tepid response. No,"it was wrong but you have to understand".

Flat out it was wrong.

There was nothing to indicate they were waiting on the left wing and mainstream media to pick up on it.

[bonnie]

As to the Dr that was killed, I had no desire he should be killed. I have followed his practise for a long time. Never wishing someone would kill him,I did certainly pray that he would stop.

After hearing the interview with the adoptive parents of baby Sarah you could not be nonchalant about what this man was doing.

I would not put my dog in a box and let her die without comfort and what aid I could give. This was a living, breathing,innocent,beautiful baby girl that was totally normal before the Dr attempted to kill her and missed the heart. She lived to five years of age and died from complications that occurred with the good Dr trying to kill her

Still,no one had a right to take it into their own hands and kill him. He is just as guilty of murder as I believe this Dr was.

He was protected by laws even if he circumvented many of them. Laura Ingrams was completely correct. Keep speaking out against what can only be called infanticide and pray for them to let God into their heart and come to the realization of what they are doing

[there buster]

Quote:

While I am reasonably certain that you do believe I have no moral standing.

No need to take such declarations of "no moral standing" seriously from anyone who equates collateral damage with intentional targeting of innocents.

[bonnie]

Quote:

While I am reasonably certain that you do believe I have no moral standing.

No need to take such declarations of "no moral standing" seriously from anyone who equates collateral damage with intentional targeting of innocents.

Actually I can still be surprised. Not that it is what Bravus thinks,that has been fairly obvious,it is statements like that from the non-judgemental crowd. It is almost fascinating to see the judgements or implications the non-judgemental continue to make.

I gave no indication whatsoever that the actions of the man that killed the abortion Dr were right or anything less than murder. In fact the opposite should have been obvious.

Not one word publically by any conservative has said anything but "this was wrong". No qualifiers,it was just wrong.