Dr. Shane Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Do they think the US has given them liberty too? They are acting like their votes should actually count for something. Like they are actually citizens of a democracy. For years I have been told that the Muslim culture doesn't like democracy and that the US is morally wrong for trying to force our culture (i.e. democracy) on a Muslim country (Iraq). Now we all these protests in Iran and I am really confused. I thought they liked dictatorships. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 16, 2009 Members Share Posted June 16, 2009 That's because that's what we've always been told. But also don't forget that there is a difference between the Arab muslim countries and the other muslim countries. And the other thing is they also like to spin things because they hate us. When they really want to emulate us. But I do agree with you. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I think Iran does have a form of democracy. But it really doesn't matter who wins the presidential election. The clerics run the show. And they are acting like they don't know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Shane, I think a lot of people confuse the ideas, and mainly because our liberal media loves to pedal the political terms without first looking these up. There are many radical differences between democracy and republic. You could say that Soviet Union was a form of democracy... because I think that differentiating factor is that democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums. That happened a lot when I was growing up. You voted on everything and anything. Democracy is more accurately found in ancient Athens... where people directly participated in running the city, and many important positions were assigned by lottery... to be a member of a city council... you just had to show up. United States IS NOT a democracy, although you could say that there are different attributes of democracy found. People who laid foundation for the US government structure did not look to Athens for emulation, because they understood that ordinary people will not care and will not have time and means to do the appropriate research to make these important decisions. They also wanted to protect the minority from the majority's decisions. So, they set up a REPUBLIC with electoral college system as well as system of checks and balances. Unfortunately what they did not see is that all three branches of the government, given an absolute power... could use it for self preservation of the established power that these already had. Which results in bureaucratic system of wasted resources and time, as well as a system that believes that more private affairs should be regulated by the government in order to preserve the functioning societies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 16, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2009 Iranians are not Arabs, they are Persians, just ask them. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Shane, I think a lot of people confuse the ideas, and mainly because our liberal media loves to pedal the political terms without first looking these up. There are many radical differences between democracy and republic. You could say that Soviet Union was a form of democracy... because I think that differentiating factor is that democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums. That happened a lot when I was growing up. You voted on everything and anything. Democracy is more accurately found in ancient Athens... where people directly participated in running the city, and many important positions were assigned by lottery... to be a member of a city council... you just had to show up. United States IS NOT a democracy, although you could say that there are different attributes of democracy found. People who laid foundation for the US government structure did not look to Athens for emulation, because they understood that ordinary people will not care and will not have time and means to do the appropriate research to make these important decisions. They also wanted to protect the minority from the majority's decisions. So, they set up a REPUBLIC with electoral college system as well as system of checks and balances. Unfortunately what they did not see is that all three branches of the government, given an absolute power... could use it for self preservation of the established power that these already had. Which results in bureaucratic system of wasted resources and time, as well as a system that believes that more private affairs should be regulated by the government in order to preserve the functioning societies. Very well put. The the governments of the communist countries were "republics" in form only. Once a stipulation of party, religious, or other affliation (guild/union, select society, elite group) is mandatory for participation in governance, that form of government becomes tyrannical. The people no longer have the capacity to run for and participate in the decisions of governance. Iran has a religious council which hand-picks a few candidates for their President, then allows the people choose between those candidates it approves. It's a farce of an "election", and the Persian peoples know it. However, Iran has troubles under the surface. While making the short list, Ahmedinijad is not "cozy" with the clerics. While the ayatollahs and mullahs have the loyalty of the senior generals of the Revolutionary Guards there, Ahmedinijad has the loyalty and allegiance of most of the junior officers who served with him in the 80's, with the overthrow of the Shah and also in their war against Iraq. In short, he has enough power to move the clerics aside, and consolidate power to himself, should he desire. I have read in certain news items that large concrete roadblocks - the kind placed by cranes - were in place around the Iranian Interior Ministry and other government buildings, just before the election. The "opposition" Presidential candidate (see council comment above) was also placed under arrest, according to those reports that got out of the country prior to news and communications (including the Internet) were closed down. Some have taken that to mean they knew the election was rigged, that they expected trouble from the people once the "election" results were released, and that it may not be going very well there right now. Time will tell if these reports are true or not. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Tedd, Unfortunatly, given well know the history ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat I would not put the US on high moral ground when it comes to foreign relations with Iran. The last time US got involved, it was not the democracy they were spreading and set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I guess one sees "po-tah-to", another sees "po-tay-to". I can see where you might think that. However, I approached the post from the opinion the US is rapidly heading down that stated track of tyranny. It's not here yet, but one day... Today, "progressive" is "in", is "cool", is "hip" - it's the "right way" to believe, in order to be seen as such in polite society. Being "conservative" today - even in "traditionally conservative areas" - means to be one of "them"; NOT the right kind of people you want to be seen in polite society with...NOT educated nor intellectually astute. In the US, the pendulum swings back and forth...but one day, prophecy indicates it will swing one way - permanently. That's what one-party/one-religion/one anything rule is all about, when dissent is crushed or relegated to ridicule, those in power seek to establish the permanence of situation, and one must be a __________ (fill in with your choice - be it de facto or by membership) in order to participate in the governance of things. That is what is occurring in Iran right now - a simple statement of fact, my friend, for it will happen here one day, too. As far as the Iranian coup - the Shah of Iran was not an ideal ally, but there aren't any, are there? He was a dictator with a track record of mistreating his people. In the Cold War, though, a nation accepted their allies based more on the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" basis much more often than on noble Liberty ideals. To believe otherwise - even today - is to be very, very naive about how nations relate with one another. To be blunt, the US very often bought their "allies" to make "enemies of my enemy" during the Cold War. Likewise the Soviets. And to what end? Once the money left, so did the "friendship". In fact, that is precisely what most foreign aide is - bought friendship from another country. There is always a hook for the aide-giver's interests somewhere in the aide given. The Shah was, in spite of this ugly detail, a powerful influence for American interests in the region (as a bought ally), and was in the process of implementing pro-democracy reforms in his country in the late 70's. However, his reforms came a little too late to prevent somebody - anybody - from grasping the populist power for their own agenda. Unfortunately, that "somebody" had to be the Ayatollah Khomeini. The rest, they say, is history. Perhaps the Shah was a bit afraid of Western-style democracy. If he had inacted more reforms earlier, though, he might have been spared the revolution. However, this is not the main reason the Shah had to leave Iran - it was because he got sold out to his political enemies. Who sold out the Shah? An American President who threw a temper tantrum because the Shah had his intelligence people do more than look at some Soviet spies crossways. An American President who thought someone else might be more "manageable" than the Shah was. It was Former President Carter who decided not to abide by the terms of the "bought alliance", and come to the Shah's aide when he was in trouble with the wrong kind of populists seeking power. Former President Carter was both naive and gullible enough to think he could "manage" a cleric with a 7th century mindset, than with the Shah. Such is the elitist mindset. History proved otherwise. While the Shah had his warts (and tell me, what country - including the US - doesn't have flat spots and warts?), the continuance of his regime would have "eventually" been a much more positive influence on the region and his own people that the Ayatollah's replacements have historically proven themselves to be. Many times, our choices are more often limited to the lesser of two evils, rather than true good and evil. For US diplomacy, that is more a rule than an exception. You'll find many times I'm as cynical with my own country as I am with other cultures...in spite my love affair with the noble ideals I see written as the Founding Law our country is (supposed to be) based upon. We are, after all, living on THIS side of the Second Coming... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I completely understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. Yet, given this history is one more reason to let the other countries take care of their own affairs. 20th century was the most barbaric yet, and because we see it normal to resolve the worlds problems by means of war... I mean we have war on almost anything today war on poverty war on cancer war on terror war on drugs you name it No need too look for causes. The doctors are still afraid to come out and say... "poor diet of junk food and animal fat linked to cancer", because they sure don't like the producers to be offended. So, they lay back and enjoy the endless grants looking for "the cure", while the only true cure is prevention by changing the lifestyle. The same with the international politics. The policy makers are not looking for historic causes, because much of them are military strategists looking to solve the problems using military strategy. Even in our society... military style control seems to be the answer to everything. I'm think that next year you won't be going to the bathroom without paying some kind of fee and signing some kind of paper . And I agree with you, we are on this side of Second Coming... yet what bothers me is that Christian people are the ones who see what's going on and say that these people are correct in what they are doing. They are making the right decisions. That blowing 200k people into oblivion in matter of seconds was the right decision and etc! Christian people... And they think that whatever we do is right because the world owes it to us. Because we are a "Christian nation" and we have the best economic, best political, and best educational systems in the world ... and everyone should be more like us and then the problems in world would be solved. And US right now is on the edge of oblivion, economically, politically, and spiritually. And people can't see it, because they are too busy waving the flag, and feeling proud about the founding fathers. What founding fathers established has pretty much been gone for about a century now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I completely understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. Yet, given this history is one more reason to let the other countries take care of their own affairs. 20th century was the most barbaric yet, and because we see it normal to resolve the worlds problems by means of war... I mean we have war on almost anything today war on poverty war on cancer war on terror war on drugs you name it No need too look for causes. The doctors are still afraid to come out and say... "poor diet of junk food and animal fat linked to cancer", because they sure don't like the producers to be offended. So, they lay back and enjoy the endless grants looking for "the cure", while the only true cure is prevention by changing the lifestyle. The same with the international politics. The policy makers are not looking for historic causes, because much of them are military strategists looking to solve the problems using military strategy. Even in our society... military style control seems to be the answer to everything. I'm think that next year you won't be going to the bathroom without paying some kind of fee and signing some kind of paper . Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Quote: An HONEST assessment of US history will lead you to the truth as it is written in Revelation 12: This Beast has ALWAYS appeared as a Lamb, and has ALWAYS spoken as a Dragon. The appearance and speaking are in the same tense in the Greek. These happen simultaneously, concurrently. It will continue to do so, right up to the establishing of that Beastly image... I would definitely agree with the statement, especially knowing the history of the US... the Indian genocide, as well as following slave trade. I think it'd be a stretch to say that US has been a lamb-like at its conception. Far from it. Nevertheless, I think you and I do agree about many things, besides the economic perspective. I do think that today's prosperity of the service economies... the ones like US, that dropped the production of goods, yet somehow enjoy better way of life. All of that is possible because of the 11 trilion dollar debt + on top of the debt extended to people of such countries. All of that becomes possible due to the position that dollar held historically in the past century. Because the dollar was (and still somehow is) the weight of gold in people's minds, the US was able to extend the credit to its own citizens, which would buy up all of the world's prosperity and start up the ventures. And because other countries were ready to accept the payments, because at that time the dollar was still pinned to gold... these countries eventually became the "servants". Not only that, but the US successfully exported the inflation abroad by flooding the foreign markets with dollars, while successfully controlling the supply domestically. It's truly brilliant! So, it is very convenient when over 75% of the world's financial transactions is denominated in dollars, and thus the records are going through your central banks. But the problem now is that people have had enough... and what US will have to do... the same thing FDR did back then... is to devalue the dollar once again, and trade it for the smaller denominated currency. I'm still waiting for the announcement . All of the "strong" economy that's "light years" away is a sham. There's not even enough money in a single bank to cover the depositor's demands. If all of the money (aka credit) in circulation were actually monetized, there would be a hyperinflation Romanian style. But that does not happen, because people don't understand the very basics of today's monetary systems of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Hey guys!! I haven't posted on here in quite a while, but I always read the posts!! Fccool, good to find someone that actually knows about how the money market works!! If more Adventists understood the Fed, they would realize with even greater depth how truly close we are to end time events!!! Have you seen the Money Masters documentary? Or Money as Debt? They really go into details on how the money supply, and especially the governing forces in this country are manipulating things, and leading us steadily closer to a "one world order". America, from Freedom to Fascism the directos cut is also a very interesting documentary, and gives me chills when it describes some of the goals of the government! Anyways, I am always shocked by people who believe that WE are a democracy, and that WE are any different from Arab nations. We aren't. We are just drinking the koolaid!! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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