Stan Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 How can one talk about stopping White Flight in the Church with out sounding racist? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted July 3, 2009 Administrators Share Posted July 3, 2009 It goes like this, simply speaking: There is a congregation. Blacks enter the church. After a time the whites leave the church. What you have left is a black church. This has happened a LOT in our Eastern Canadian churches. Since I don't attend a church back East I have no idea how this works. But I know that it does. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 3, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2009 what is the reason the whites are leaving the church when the blacks come in???? dgrimm60 Here are some of the ones i've heard: Not enough seats in church anymore. Not enough quality baptisms. The Lord is calling me to plant a church. Its time to give others room to serve. My husband says the music is too loud. This is not our church anymore. Things have changed so much. Things were ok until the darkies came. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 So what can be done to win whites back? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 3, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2009 As a black Pastor who works for a "white" conference I would say that many white's have moved congregations and have not necessarily left the church. They may need to come back to Jesus but not necessarily to the churches they left. Many left for understandable reasons, some just left. I will hold my prescriptions to allow whites who have left or know people who have left to give theirs first. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted July 3, 2009 Administrators Share Posted July 3, 2009 I find this an interesting topic, and thank you, Lazarus, for your input! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 HEY ALL EVEN though our S.D.A. church is all white when other nationalities come in to visit and worship with us we always welcome them dgrimm60 It's one thing to welcome visitors that you'll probably never see again. It's quite another to have people come in and be members and want to try doing something different. It's usually not good or bad, right or wrong, just different. People are fearful of change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 True. But easier said than done. We don't like change. Many of our churches are terribly fearful of anything new or different, and they fight it tooth and nail under the self righteous guise of upholding the standards. But it is really fear, which is not of God. I have seen churches miss out on God's blessings because they were too fearful to receive them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I think there is still a lot of racial tension even among Christians. I have told this story a lot, so sorry if ya'll have heard it before.... We went to a mostly all black church a few years ago. We really liked the style of worship better than the mostly white church. We went and enjoyed church for several years until it became so painfully obvious that the black members no longer wanted us to worship with them. My children were not allowed to participate in the children's choir--one Sabbath the choir director asked all of the children to come up front, when my kids went they were told to sit back down, because they had not practiced with the others...how can you practice when no one tells you when practice is? Another child informed us we were crackers and they didn't want crackers in the choir. But the final straw was when, they held a special Communion on Friday night, they called all the members except the white members. When we showed up for church expecting Communion we read in the bulletin it had been moved to the previous night and then it went on to Thank all of the special people it took to make that happen on such short notice. I left in tears, and have never gone back to that church. I don't know what the answer is, but we really need to learn to get along. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted July 3, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2009 I have observed that racial prejudice is not just whites being anti non white, it comes in many shades and forms. And I have no idea what the answer is. A few years ago Sammy was volunteer pastor of a small Italian church in Sydney. The church was slowly dying. In the last 2 years a lot of members from Zimbabwe have come and taken over the church, preserving it from death by attrition and turning it into an active centre. Which is good, but probably not what the few, aging remaining Italian people are used to. But they still seem to attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuff sed Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Once a minority group becomes "the majority" in a particular church they gradually being to change the style of worship to that which they prefer rather than what was in place when they were the minority. It might be a combination of music style and in many instances length of services. Once the "former" congregation has left for "other climes" is is almost impossible to bring them back. Some of them start up new congregations and wait for the process to start all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 4, 2009 Members Share Posted July 4, 2009 This has been going on for a long time. And not just at our churches but our schools also. When I went to GNYA, as a senior, I remember white classmates mentioning that there parents were going to take them out the following year because there were to many blacks or hispanics. Not sure anything can be done about this, other than people coming closer to there Lord and Savior. Having had more black and hispanic friends than white, I always thought that as this was happening that it was better for those churches, I even thought "good riddance" who needs people that are so unexcepting of others. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2009 HEY ALL EVEN though our S.D.A. church is all white when other nationalities come in to visit and worship with us we always welcome them dgrimm60 Visiting? Yes! Wait and see when they start staying It also happens when Asians start coming in. How often it happens, I don't know. But I know of at least one where it happened. Seems rather ironic. Send missionaries to win people, but when they come too close, you leave? Solution for the flight? Not being white, I would not presume to tell somebody else what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2009 I'm married to a Mexican national. We take our 2 children to a mostly white church whose membership is about 1/5 "Latinos" and 1/8 blacks. Our kids, of course, are half Mexican and half English/ German, also part Japanese and part Apache Indian. They are completely bilingual and are usually viewed as Mexican-American. In a few weeks our church will have a new pastor, whom I found out just minutes ago is Mexican-American and speaks fluent Spanish. Until this time, I've attended the Spanish-language Sabbath school. There has sometimes been feelings that the Mexican members were not treated fairly, but they did not become bitter or drop out of church, nor did they talk against anyone. At our local church we have elders who are black and now a pastor who is Mexican-American, and we also have whites. No one has a monopoly on racial prejudice and no race is without its problems. Everybody needs patience and forgiveness. It's OK to attend a church that has the kind of church service and music you like. For me personally if people leave in order to go to a church they are more comfortable with for any reason, I have no problem with it. WE need to be more accepting of all people, including whites who may decide they want to stay with whites, just like we should be understanding of Mexicans who like to worship with their own people-- and also, with blacks who prefer to worship with blacks. In Loma Linda, we have big churches for "hispanics" and blacks and Chinese and Indonesians and Philippinos and Romanians. (I don't think I've missed any of them!) The Africans prefer to worship at their own church and not with the black Americans. But everyone is free to go to any church they want. So we also have two large churches with several thousand each, and these are a mix of all races, who worship without any thought of racial or cultural differences. One of these is led by a black female pastor. http://www.campushillchurch.net/ Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 So what can be done to win whites back? All the black folks could do a Michael Jackson and become more white...or the white folks could get a could tan and become more brown..... teehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Some of it has to do with racism, but some of it also has to do with cultural differences that have nothing to do with skin color. People with similar backgrounds, values, and lifestyles tend to congregate together, regardless of skin color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 As a black Pastor who works for a "white" conference I would say that many white's have moved congregations and have not necessarily left the church. They may need to come back to Jesus but not necessarily to the churches they left. Many left for understandable reasons, some just left. I will hold my prescriptions to allow whites who have left or know people who have left to give theirs first. This great subject brought me out of retirement (for now, at least). As a conservative Republican white deacon in a liberal democrat black church, I have seen many situations where it was best just shut up about worldly topics. We have worshiped together for over 2.5 years now and I love my church family! I don't have a problem with the ordinance of humility. Our church consists of: Bahamians Jamaicans Haitians Caucasians Hispanics I have concluded in my situation: 1. It's not the color of skin that is a problem. I hug 'em all! The tension points can come from a cultural thing. I've had great open conversations with my black church family members and several have told me that they were raised to distrust white folk. That's a hard lesson to shake, even into adulthood. We know white families say basically the same thing to their kids about minorities. It tells me that we either find and neutralize the source of that devilish propaganda or we wait another generation or two and watch nothing change! 2. Racism exists in all cultures. How God will deal with this to prepare a people for eternity, I do not know. There is no human answer to this one. 3. Worldly influences keep this problem alive. A few minutes of gangsta rap or a few minutes of VH1 will show you that we'll never get past the tensions without spiritual help. Church members that dabble in worldly things have a greater fight on their hands to overcome racism. 4. Black Adventist churches promote racism from the pulpit. I have seen this one over and over... It's a regurgitation of what you'll hear the NAACP preach. Whites just aren't into that message of 'pity us poor blacks'. 5. Jesus and His redeeming power for ALL people is simply not preached enough. 6. All races dwell too much on the destructive differences we have, not the similarities. We don't laugh with each other enough and believe me, we all have very funny stories to tell about the cultures in which we were raised. Humans are still humans. 7. When I got married (16 years ago on 7/11) I purpose in my heart to enjoy and celebrate the gifts both Mrs TW and I bring to the marriage. If we are both into pulling the cart in the same direction, then our differences actually compliment each other. Same for a mixed-race church. 8. Every culture or race thinks they are better than everyone else. I've heard Cubans bust on Mexicans. I've heard Nicaraguans bust on white Americans. I've heard Filipinos bust on the Chinese and Koreans. Satan has to be enjoying this. Now I'd love to hear Laz weigh in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 So far... can any of this be successful in taking the gospel to whites? Turns out, if that does not happen none of us will be getting out alive. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 So far... can any of this be successful in taking the gospel to whites? Turns out, if that does not happen none of us will be getting out alive. I think about this often... for all races. How do we as members of the Kingdom of God demonstrate to the world that Jesus loves Samaritans and Gentiles so much that He willingly died for their sins, too. How do we transpose that attitude to 2009 US society? I really don't know the answer. It appears impossible to solve from a human standpoint and I don't know what miracle will be needed to change us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2009 Ironically you don't change people's hearts in regard to race by talking about race and condemning people for their prejudices. The change comes by people's hearts truly being changed by the Holy Spirit and by people realizing that God loves people of all races equally. If you go up to people and say, "You need to begin loving people of the other race more," they will just resist it. Notice Jesus didn't do that. Jesus told stories that brought them insights and conviction of their own need of forgiveness and mercy; then they saw how they were the same as everyone else. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 There's a hispanic church within walking distance of where I live. Maybe 7 blocks away, or .75 miles at the most. But if you don't speak spanish fluently no need to bother trying to attend. I have no problem with that. We drive to a mostly black church. there are people of other cultures that attend there, but not many. The black american cultural worship style can be difficult for some others to assimilate. There are a lot of caribbean americans in that church also. Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Speaking of asians, and missionaries I had an unusual experience this week. As I've mentioned I work in a driver license ofc, dps, dmv, whatever you want to call it. Part of my job is administering driver exams. It has been unusually hot in Texas. June was the hottest month on record. Here lately it reaches 100+ degrees almost everyday. So I was outside doing road exams. I had one more to do, and it was hot. I wanted to hurry up an finish so that I could go inside and work in the a/c. The person taking the test was an asian guy. After inspecting his car, I sat down in the passengers seat. I noticed he had this big book; it looked to be a bible, but I wasn't sure. He confirmed that it was a bible and that he was a missionary. I figured he was mormon or something. I asked where he was from and he said the Phillipines. Here's the kicker: Just before we were to start the exam he asked if we could have a word of prayer. I said no. I have no problem with prayer, but I wanted to get out of the heat asap. About this time I asked him what church denominaton he belonged to, and he said adventist. Whoa, I thought to myself. I better change my mind and have prayer with this person, and I did. After the exam, which he passed, I revealed to him that I am adventist also. He said that he is going to come visit my church. Maybe he will or maybe he won't. It was an interesting turn of events just the same. DB Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 When I was attending the local SDA church I saw mostly economic division - those who had lots of money and those who just got by.... What it really comes down to is we, by nature, love our own, but that's not love at all. That's human love, which is egocentric....Read Luke 6:20-36. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 HEY ROBERT the only way we as people can get true love is to have the HOLY SPIRIT in our life's Hey Dgrimm60 (You remind me of some character on SNL)....Anyway.... Here's the thing, I have the HS in my life, but that doesn't mean I love everyone....I still have a human nature and I am not totally free of it....So I struggle...we all struggle. Let's not kid ourselves, we all are by nature racists. Even if everyone were the same color the tall ones would flock to other tall ones...the rich to the rich....the very educated to the educated, etc, etc....So there's division everywhere even in the church....It's going to take the gospel...the true gospel to break down barriers.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Speaking of asians, and missionaries I had an unusual experience this week. As I've mentioned I work in a driver license ofc, dps, dmv, whatever you want to call it. Part of my job is administering driver exams. It has been unusually hot in Texas. June was the hottest month on record. Here lately it reaches 100+ degrees almost everyday. So I was outside doing road exams. I had one more to do, and it was hot. I wanted to hurry up an finish so that I could go inside and work in the a/c. The person taking the test was an asian guy. After inspecting his car, I sat down in the passengers seat. I noticed he had this big book; it looked to be a bible, but I wasn't sure. He confirmed that it was a bible and that he was a missionary. I figured he was mormon or something. I asked where he was from and he said the Phillipines. Here's the kicker: Just before we were to start the exam he asked if we could have a word of prayer. I said no. I have no problem with prayer, but I wanted to get out of the heat asap. About this time I asked him what church denominaton he belonged to, and he said adventist. Whoa, I thought to myself. I better change my mind and have prayer with this person, and I did. After the exam, which he passed, I revealed to him that I am adventist also. He said that he is going to come visit my church. Maybe he will or maybe he won't. It was an interesting turn of events just the same. DB This is interesting. I was not aware that the SDA Church in the Phillipines were sending Adventist missionaries to the United States. How cool. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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