White Flight

[Ted Oplinger]

Here's some simple, NOT carefully considered, ideas:

Be intentional (i.e. discus, plan, set goals and evaluate) about tackling racism, prejudice, tradition and culture in our churches.

Pastors preach sermons on these topics,

Sabbath school and Youth leaders teach lessons covering these issue. We don't have to stick to the lesson each week.

Boards can develop plans as to how they can be be more welcoming to "others" and not place tradition and culture above scripture.

When selecting associate Senior/Associate Pastor's churches conferences need to plan for and promote diversity. Some Black SDA churches are "going against the grain" and employing White/Hispanic pastors to reach sections of the wider community.

The NAD should begin a dialogue about race culture and tradition in the North American Adventist church along the lines of Jan Paulsen's "let's talk". An unscripted televised series of discussions on Hope Channel would be interesting.

Unions should facilitate Pastor's dialogue on these issues.

White flight is not the problem, it's a symptom of a much larger problem.

All very good ideas on paper, but how do they often get fleshed out?

I've seen a number of "diversity" programs initiated... usually with the premise there's something "wrong" with the white, who must then change their ways and culture to reflect a "more enlightened" approach to life.

Sometimes quite subtle, other times rather bluntly.

That is simply bigotry toward the whites.

Such is the result of taking our diversity tips from the world. I believe Christ has a better way - outlined in John 14-18.

Just to ask - what is "white flight" the symptom of??

Ted

[Kountzer]

I know Pastor Frank Williams who pastors a "black" church in Bryan, and another one in Navasota. I know some people in houston who belong to the international church as well.

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>So, could it be more of a worship style than a color issue?<<

“I think she’s got it, I think she’s got it. ... By George, she’s got it!”

For myself, I try, as often as I’m able, to get up to Eugene – to the Korean SDA church – where I cannot understand a word of what they’re saying; however, the potluck! such food! I only wish I could find a Sunday-keeping Filipino church – as their food is to die for (unfortunately for y’all, they use a lot of pork)! Mexican, too... umm, ummm. Too bad I don’t know of any Mexican church potlucks. Then again,

I wouldn’t pass-up a church that offered steak and fries for potluck!

Hey! mebbe churches might just do interracial potluck with the sermon in between courses; I mean, how much concern ‘bout color and...

“You know, things like that,...” –Arnold Schwarzenegger

can one work-up whilst stuffing his or her face?

Between Arnie and me, I think we just solved the color thing.

As for sermons and such – it is cultural with me. Pastors who scream give me the willies; and foot-stomping rockabillygospel... such as I [mostly] encounter upon the Gd channels of satellite TV, etc – what can I say? (I don’t mind the preaching in the Korean church, as their emphases lie in their intonation rather than in decibel levels).

I also find that the time limitations within the structured church services imposed upon most pastors are hardly sufficient for them to develop any in-depth studies they may wish to present...; therefor, my primary church-attending is done on the Gd/forums on the web.

[carolaa]

For myself, I try, as often as I’m able, to get up to Eugene – to the Korean SDA church – where I cannot understand a word of what they’re saying; however, the potluck! such food! I only wish I could find a Sunday-keeping Filipino church – as their food is to die for (unfortunately for y’all, they use a lot of pork)! Mexican, too... umm, ummm. Too bad I don’t know of any Mexican church potlucks.

Come to Texas - we've got all of the above.

[Kountzer]

At that 'white' sda church I belonged to the potluck food was soo good. Vegetarian filipino food, all kinds of food. I know of 1 korean sda church in houston. It is on westview not far from where I work.

[jasd]

Tejano State, I'm on my way. (only wish...)

[GreatLakesGramma]

jasd, I'm with you on the yelling bit. Any pastor who feels the need to yell regularly during his sermon will lose me. I am an Adventist in large part because when I wasn't able to get to the radio to turn off the Voice of Prophecy in the mornings as I was getting dressed for my day as a college student, and I realized he didn't yell like most radio preachers I'd heard, I started listening.

[lazarus]

I will try to have listen today pk.

[Stan]

Still no solutions.

The bigger problem is not reaching various groups, some of it is just because we are comfortable where we are at.

Several years ago, the man who became the first Black Pastor in Canada, Rudy James, was concerned that the West Indian folks in Toronto were not going to any Church. (Rudy and I became friends, he has since fallen asleep in Jesus)

So he went to meet with the Ontario Conference.

Said that was a need for a West Indian Fellowship.

The White Folks at the Conference were confused. They said things like

Don't we all worship the same God?

Don't we all use the same Hymnal?

Why don't they worship with other Canadians?

We use the same Sabbath School quarterly, why can't we study together?

We need Churches were all can come.

etc etc

After they put him on as a 1/2 time Pastor the Church exploded.

Maybe the same thing in reverse needs to be done.

[Stan]

Another similar problem, so I have been told, is in the North east area of the US.

Talking about the Regional Conference. It is primarily West Indian and they are growing, have great leadership etc.

So what is the problem?

Their growth is primarily West Indian, and I have been told they have not baptized and African-American for years.

This is a situation that explains better of the culture and not the color.

Several problems like this are out there, but no one dares to tackle the solution.

It trivializes the problem to blame it on racism, I really do not think that is the issue. BUT it avoids finding solutions by pointing that as the problem.

If we want to get out of the place alive, solutions have to come.

[Kountzer]

There are quite a few west indians at my church. We baptize quite a few african americans though. I don't see any problems.

[Outta Here]

The solution has to come from time spent outside of church. Visiting one another in the homes, sharing meals, playing games, laughing, hugging, smiling--befriending--all activities through which people can embrace differences and discover similarities.

It is fear of the unknown, fear of change, and fear of finding one's own faults that cause people to flee.

[phkrause]

I'll be interested in your take. I personally thought that it was right on. Also he mentions some interesting things I had not know before about Malcom X.

pk

[nuff sed]

Rudy James was an unusual fellow. I was in the Ontario-Quebec Conference office when he was there. At the Ministerial Campout at Camp Frenda where I was Camp Director, Rudy and his wife were in the cafeteria line. As they passed the salads, his wife picked up the green olives and then put them back and picked up the black ones. Rudy gave her a poke and said, "You're prejudiced"...<g> My father called him to the Bermuda Mission later where he was an outstanding Pastor.

[lazarus]

Stan,

I think we've seen here that some do not believe there is a problem. I think that's half the battle. If our members, Pastors and Administrators don't see white flight as a problem there will be not any solutions. In fact I have white members who are asked why they still go to a predominantly black church. They expectation is that they would leave!

I think solutions come through a clearly laid out process of dialogue, prayer, exploration of scripture to understand what God desires in his church and then a will to change.

Some don't want to face the reality of white, black or any kind of flight. The fact that we still have conferences based on color is a shame and reproach to the cause of Christ.

Some whites have left churches because they believe that their style of worship is more reverent and therefore superior. Superior and therefore better and more acceptable to God. Some Blacks don't go to white churches because they don't feel the Spirit of God is manifest there. If God Himself doesn't even turn up then why should I!!!

[Stan]

I don't think it is a conscience action, it is just too universal.

There are similar problems in white Church, people often want Church to be similar to what they had growing up, it is safe. When everything is turned upside down, from the music to the muscians and more, they no longer feel safe. You then find Churches that have successfully kept out young folks and their music. Somehow seniors need to be respected, AND we need to retain the youth.

We have a some First Nation converts, (what americans call Native Americans or Indians) they seem to be retained as active church members when they go to a First Nation Church.

It does not matter if they are 'red or yellow, black or white" we have to activly, and seriously meet their needs wants and desires for Christ..

Birds of a feather, still flock together.

We have planted an IndoCanadian church, what some would call east Indians, (which is considered rude to call them that)

One Indo Church I was at, used Indian Musical Instruments and music, they felt at home and safe, to make them change over to 'our instruments' would not be that good.. nor needed. to bring their instruments to be the only ones in a traditional North American Church, would not work either.

The bottom line, is that we need to reach out to all, and let them retain their culture. JMHO.

[lazarus]

All very good ideas on paper, but how do they often get fleshed out?

Other denominations have done it. It takes a long time. Harsh words are exchanged. Raw feelings are expressed but in the end there has been healing and progress. I'm trying to find the news report I saw about a year ago about a group of black and white Pastors who started a dialogue.

Quote:

I've seen a number of "diversity" programs initiated... usually with the premise there's something "wrong" with the white, who must then change their ways and culture to reflect a "more enlightened" approach to life.

Sometimes quite subtle, other times rather bluntly.

That is simply bigotry toward the whites.

This is a common fear expressed by white folk. I understand it.

Quote:

I believe Christ has a better way - outlined in John 14-18.

How does this get fleshed out in a practical sense. How can we apply these principles to evangelism, selection of Pastors, the organizations of conferences, union and the appointment of administrators?

Quote:

Just to ask - what is "white flight" the symptom of??

Ted

White flight is, I believe, a symptom of a larger problem that we Christian's have that places our preferences in terms of color, culture and tradition above loving one another.

[lazarus]

Don't disagree Stan.

We had most our West African contingent leave in January. Why? They felt that they wanted to serve those who were coming into the US who had "fallen by the wayside" They felt they could best do that by forming their company. To me it was a great idea. They want to plant a new church to reach "their" people. They know best how to do it. I'm all for that. they are growing already.

The spaces that they left have already been filled. Its been a blessing to us too.

If a group of white member leave a church to plant a new church to win white folk, go for it.

Sometimes, people leave not to evangelize or start the work in a new area. They leave to retain what they have, their traditions, culture and control.

As an intern I was pastoring in a three church district. A large black church, a small white church and a small mixed church. The white church was a result of white flight. The told me as much. They left with around 50. In the following 15 years they shrank to 25. They retained their worship style, culture and traditions but they did not seek to evangelize.

On sabbath when doing door to door. The first elder said to me "we don't want to go over there, they are not the kind of people we want in our church". It was a lower class white neighborhood.

[Woody]

I think there IS a black white issue .... but it really pales in comparison to the gender hate and discrimination. This is larger and affects more people. Just look at the politics thread if you doubt the demeaning of women.

[Outta Here]

I don't have access to the politics threads--chose not to join in on them. However, it most certainly doesn't surprise me. There has been gender discrimination as long as mankind has existed.

[jasd]

It is symptomatic of a sad deficiency exhibiting overtones of a Freudian illness. Pathetic.

[Stan]

Lazarus

One of the things we are doing for reaching identifiable groups is NOT to meet Sabbath morning... but meet in the afternoon.

This solves a couple of problems

We do not want to give the impression that... We don't want YOUR PEOPLE going to OUR Church, we have one for YOU PEOPLE, when we have the meetings in the afternoon the folks fellowship with the various churches, (often at the direction of the children...)

and

When they meet in the afternoon, the non-adventist friends, who are culturally similar, feel safer as it is not too 'Churchy'

I would be interested to start a more private forum to discuss reaching various groups.

One group we are not doing anything with, from all cultural backgrounds, are the wealthy and affluent. Shame on us.

[Kountzer]

This is a personal observation, & I've mentioned this before, they don't have 'white flight' here per se, as much as they have 'english flight', as in the english language. The hispanic churches are growing almost exponentially. If you put a texas conference church somewhere close to inner houston it will soon be inundated with people who only speak spanish. It's a nice problem to have, if you want to call it a problem. There are quite a few large and dynamic spanish language churches around where I live.

[lazarus]

Stan

Explain some more about that. Are you saying that the different ethnic groups(for want of a better word) meet separately in the afternoon? Are you talking about a single church?

I think many churches focus on the wealthy. I've seen Pastor's and members light up when there is a non-Christian wealthy person starts coming to church. They fall over themselves.

I think SDA's DONT do much to win the poor either.

[Key Guy]

Originally Posted By: timewarp

4. Black Adventist churches promote racism from the pulpit. I have seen this one over and over... It's a regurgitation of what you'll hear the NAACP preach. Whites just aren't into that message of 'pity us poor blacks'.

Careless generalizations like these don't help to advance the discussion.

"Careless"? As long as you refuse to recognize that blacks are at least as racist as whites, your comments are of little value. You can pass over my observations as 'careless', but you can't negate, change or trivialize what I have seen and heard with my own senses.

Bottom line... no racist will enter the kingdom. None.

I have determined that only by a continual and purposeful beholding of Christ and a sincere asking for His character and filling of the Holy Spirit can anyone put aside whatever racial baggage was implanted throughout one's childhood. Mrs. White places much emphasis on the high priority needed in making the deepest relationship with Christ we can obtain.

It's called abiding. I know of no other answer.