Joe_in_RP Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The history of the church has been to inform people of the truth. We have been champions of the truth. But truth is not just the bible. It is bible principles lived out in peoples behavior. Today we live in a time of good and evil. But has the church and some institutions become politically correct? Today Bloomberg is reporting the following headline "Pope Calls for New Financial Order With ‘Real Teeth’ " It describes the headline in the first paragraph. July 7 (Bloomberg) -- Pope Benedict XVI called for a new financial order with “real teeth” as Group of Eight leaders prepare to discuss ways out of the worst recession since World War II. Now here is the top financial publication reporting on the efforts of the pope to take control of the world. Its a headline in a respected publication. Its earth shattering if you think about it. Its not the first time either. But we are not allowed to talk about it. We are labeled as undesirables because we dare to talk about a conspiracy even when its right out in the open. People need to remember Jesus was murdered by a conspiracy. What has our church become when we can't talk about what the pope is openly doing? What would our founders think of such a policy as this? What would Bates, Miller, Smith, Wagner, Jones say about this? http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aUK_q1tvHrEc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 “Political authority” also involves a wide range of values, which must not be overlooked in the process of constructing a new order of economic productivity, socially responsible and human in scale. As well as cultivating differentiated forms of business activity on the global plane, we must also promote a dispersed political authority, effective on different levels.... In terms of the resolution of the current crisis, the State's role seems destined to grow, as it regains many of its competences. In some nations, moreover, the construction or reconstruction of the State remains a key factor in their development..... The State does not need to have identical characteristics everywhere: the support aimed at strengthening weak constitutional systems can easily be accompanied by the development of other political players, of a cultural, social, territorial or religious nature, alongside the State. The articulation of political authority at the local, national and international levels is one of the best ways of giving direction to the process of economic globalization.... The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed..... The world-wide diffusion of forms of prosperity should not therefore be held up by projects that are self-centred, protectionist or at the service of private interests. Indeed the involvement of emerging or developing countries allows us to manage the crisis better today. The transition inherent in the process of globalization presents great difficulties and dangers that can only be overcome if we are able to appropriate the underlying anthropological and ethical spirit that drives globalization towards the humanizing goal of solidarity...... Consequently, projects for integral human development cannot ignore coming generations, but need to be marked by solidarity and inter-generational justice, while taking into account a variety of contexts: ecological, juridical, economic, political and cultural[117]..... The Church has a responsibility towards creation and she must assert this responsibility in the public sphere. In so doing, she must defend not only earth, water and air as gifts of creation that belong to everyone. She must above all protect mankind from self-destruction...... In order to protect nature, it is not enough to intervene with economic incentives or deterrents; not even an apposite education is sufficient. These are important steps, but the decisive issue is the overall moral tenor of society. If there is a lack of respect for the right to life ... Its a book available at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...eritate_en.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2009 The world has lost its moral compass. Unbriddled and unprincipled capitalism has given us morally bankrupt businessmen and politicians. The only entity that has moral courage to speak out against corruption these days is the pope. And you rail against it as conspiracy? I see no conspiracy. Perhaps I'm blind. But what I see is just a natural outgrowth of the times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The world has lost its moral compass. Unbriddled and unprincipled capitalism has given us morally bankrupt businessmen and politicians. It is very sad that capitalist societies, who were the last ones to have a moral compass, have gone the way of other forms of government, and are now almost as corrupt as the socialist nations of the world. "The greatest want of the world is the want of men - men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall." ED 57 Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The history of the church has been to inform people of the truth. We have been champions of the truth. But truth is not just the bible. It is bible principles lived out in peoples behavior. Today we live in a time of good and evil. But has the church and some institutions become politically correct? Today Bloomberg is reporting the following headline "Pope Calls for New Financial Order With ‘Real Teeth’ " It describes the headline in the first paragraph. "INFORM PEOPLE OF THE TRUTH"??????? What nonsense....We are called to be children of the King. We are called to show the spirit of the God of the universe in our lives. Our primary duty is to live as Christ would have lived. I agree that our lives are "bible principles lived out in peoples behavior."...but to immediately concider our revulsion of the 'Pope and his policys ' is NOT Christ-like behavior. Did Christ fretted over Anniais or Ciaphais or Pilate? What nonsense...! This is the type of behavior that I questioned in my thread "Just what IS the adventist church currently?". Again, I ask the question that begs an answer...Who ARE we as a church? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 NeilD, I tend to agree with you to some degree. But IF, and I do mean If, the SDA Church is the group represented in Dan. 2's kingdome that will never end, the 'nation' in Matthew 21:43, the Ten Bridesmaids in Matthew 25:1-13, the prophecy about the talents in Matthew 25:14-30, the group called 'Sardis' in Rev. 3:1-6, The group called 'Thyatira' in Rev. 2:18-29, the rest of Her offspring in Rev. 12:17, Priests to God in Rev. 5:9-10 and the first to be measured/judged in Rev.11:1-2, then don't you agree that we should be excited about this and invite others to be with us? I know that I just gave the readers here a mouthful to chew, but please give it a try to see if the shoe fits. Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Today Bloomberg is reporting the following headline "Pope Calls for New Financial Order With ‘Real Teeth’ " It describes the headline in the first paragraph. July 7 (Bloomberg) -- Pope Benedict XVI called for a new financial order with “real teeth” as Group of Eight leaders prepare to discuss ways out of the worst recession since World War II. Now here is the top financial publication reporting on the efforts of the pope to take control of the world. Its a headline in a respected publication. Its earth shattering if you think about it. Its not the first time either. But we are not allowed to talk about it. We are labeled as undesirables because we dare to talk about a conspiracy even when its right out in the open. 1. What makes you say that "we are not allowed to talk about it"?? Where is the data for that? 2. I understand that we had an official "papal observer" (A cardinal or Bishop) at our 1990 QuinQuinium -- invited by Adventists to attend. 3. 1995 - we had the flag for the "Holy See" marched onto the platform in the march of flags/nations?? Standing ovation? Comments by Lonnie Melashenko? 4. Neil Wilson made some statement about Adventists no longer claiming that the Papacy is the "beast"??? (Apparently it was done as part of a legal brief related to a law suit against one of our west coast publishing houses). Maybe that march toward reconciliation with Rome is impeding our ability to "comment"?? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Today Bloomberg is reporting the following headline "Pope Calls for New Financial Order With ‘Real Teeth’ " It describes the headline in the first paragraph. July 7 (Bloomberg) -- Pope Benedict XVI called for a new financial order with “real teeth” as Group of Eight leaders prepare to discuss ways out of the worst recession since World War II. Now here is the top financial publication reporting on the efforts of the pope to take control of the world. Its a headline in a respected publication. Its earth shattering if you think about it. Its not the first time either. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aUK_q1tvHrEc Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 8, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2009 You're right, of course: the SDA church *is* insufficiently insane. It is compromising its mission in the world by not loudly proclaiming counterfactual conspiracy theories. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I am new to this string and have not gone back to read where everyone is coming from but I do know this about our beloved church; as a church we are asleep at the switch spiritually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 You're right, of course: the SDA church *is* insufficiently insane. It is compromising its mission in the world by not loudly proclaiming counterfactual conspiracy theories. Not me. I always get my counterfactuals straight from Bravus!! Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 For over 100 year the Seventh-day Adventist church has had two political policies. One the separation of church and state. The Government should sty out of the church business and the church should stay out of the government business. Second it the individual should have the freedom to practice religion without interference from the government and the Government should be free to operate without interference from the church. This is a complete contrast to the Roman Catholic church policies. The Catholic church has used its influnce to try to make things they oppose illigal like abortion. They have instructed their priest to withhold comuunion from some goverment workers because thse people we opposed to the church policies. The Catholic church is the only religion who has political appointees and representation in the United Nations. The Catholic Church has worked quietly for a long time to interfere with government policies around the world. But now, now the catholic church wants an even larger role in the new developing world government. In this new church policy written by pope Benedict to the church he is instructing the bishops and priests to teach this new and expanding role of the catholic church. He is politically using the office to advance a political agenda. So what should the role of the Adventist church or its members or its intuitions be in this process? Should we remain silent? Should we ignore the historical behavior of the Catholic church in politics? Should we become educated in what is happening with this world government? Should we expose the methods or motives of the Catholic church? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I know that I just gave the readers here a mouthful to chew, but please give it a try to see if the shoe fits. Enjoy Not sure about you, but I'm really not into chewing shoes. A bit too canine. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Planey wrote: "Not sure about you, but I'm really not into chewing shoes." regarding my post. Well, have you ever heard that one can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 What do we have here, a cliche festival? Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_in_RP Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 Is somebody trying to hijack this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Why stomp all over our friends the Catholics? Fighting or auguing with them is like going in circles. Take a look at the foundation of an organization and perhaps you can find what is wrong. Or put it another way, take a look at the blueprint. What Adventists should stand for is what and how they got their start. They were diligently studying their bibles and shareing with each other the things they were finding. Sure, they made mistakes, but they didn't give up. Take a look at Rev. 2:4&5 and Rev. 3:3. We study the quartly but not the bible and then we ridicule those that do. I was removed from being a youth leader because I was teaching the kids how to study the bible and the pastor only wanted the little friend to be used in our study. (sad) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-believer Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I was removed from being a youth leader because I was teaching the kids how to study the bible and the pastor only wanted the little friend to be used in our study. (sad) Yes it is very sad... The SDA Church removed me from being youth leader in a baptist church as well Dr Rich. We should teach people the Bible and NOT the sabbath school quarterly's. Quote Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I do know this about our beloved church; as a church we are asleep at the switch spiritually. While it is true, the older generation of Seventh Day Adventists have been asleep re: revealing the conflict between Christ and Satan, all one has to do is listen to some major SDA evangelists to get a good picture of the stand being taken to reveal the true doctrine of Christ and how it is different than mainstream Christianity. John Carter, Lyle Albrecht, Cox, Jack Colon, Dan Smith, Morris Venden, all preach beautiful sermons on God's love for the individual and His willingness to save to the uttermost. However it is this as well as the difference between the mark of the beast and the seal of God that is being preached, and also the nearness of the return of Jesus that is moving hearts to develop a friendship with Jesus for the purpose of hastening His coming. A few years ago there were less than five million people in the Adventist Church. Today it is believed there is over 27,000,000. And there is an influx of young people with the energy and the idealism, with faith, that is making the voice of Daniel and the Revelation of primary importance to uncounted individuals who have yet to accept the call of God to the Adventist church. This prophetic utterance is being fulfilled right before our eyes and only the criticizers are devoid of its' fullfilment in their lives. " And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions." Joel 2:28 NKJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Where do we get the idea that God keeps postponing his schedule because Adventist are not ready? It's humorous at least to think that we can "hasten" the return of the Christ... especially considering that God knows the future perfectly, and nothing takes Him by a surprise. But, there's this idea floating around the LDS and SDA circles that we can speed up the coming of Christ by doing certain things Look at it from this perspective... Whatever you do in this life YOU WILL DO... you WILL NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE other than that which you will do . Not that you can't and unable to do anything else... but the fact is that you WILL NOT DO anything else other than what you WILL DO. It's simple logic then to conclude that no matter what you do, God knows about it and already planned for it in advance. And then He told us about it, which is called the prophecy! Sure, some people will quickly scream out "Johah! Conditional prophecy!". Again, from God's perspective... it does not change the outcome. Nothing is delayed... it may look to us as being "delayed", but it's not. God knew that if He sent Jonah, then Ninevites would repent. But, He also knew that Jonah hated them... so He could have easily chosen anyone else to do the job, but that experience was reserved for Jonah so he would learn a valuable lesson, and perhaps would change his worldview. As humans, we love the idea that we could control God's will. But, it's a simpleminded approach that unfortunately is used by preachers to motivate the crowds of the faithful. I.E... if you don't do what we say, Jesus will return later than scheduled . LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Certainly the Adventist 'church' is no ordinary body. It is a movement, called of God to prepare a dying world for the soon return of the Lord Jesus. An understanding of the prophecies of Daniel & The Revelation by the Hand of God, led to the formation of this last "message bearer" to Earth. The Adventist church has an understanding of prophecy that is far beyond anything I've ever seen. The Adventist people also possess a knowledge of Jesus and His Life & Ministry that is thrilling. Yet along with that insight comes a responsibility. Lest you think I am bragging (I'm not), may I say that the church is full of people who struggle and sometimes fail, just as I do. The good news is: Jesus accepts sinners, and invites us to grow in Him as a perfect body. In the words of Paul: "this is a mystery," but it is also a reality. God is calling together a people who want to know Him, and will walk where He walks. from olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2009 What happened to the children of Israel after they were liberated from Egyptian slavery? Study Numbers 13, 14; Deut. 1- 3 and Hebrews 3: 12 to 4: 10. The Bible clearly shows that the children of Israel were not allowed to enter the Promised Land but died in the wilderness because of rebellion against God and against God's prophet. I believe the evidence shows that the SDA church is largely repeating the example of Israel. The New Testament also contains indications that the time of Christ's coming is dependent on the spiritual condition of the church. 2 Peter 3: 11, 12; Rev. 14: 15; 19: 7. Ellen White speaks of the timing of the Second Coming as something that is not unconditional but that depends on what happens on earth, particularly in the church. See the following statements: It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, happy people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in "because of unbelief." Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them. For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years.--Manuscript 4, 1883. Evangelism (1946), page 696, paragraph 1 We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel, but for Christ's sake His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequence of their own wrong course of action.--Ev 695, 696 (1901); Last Day Events (1992), page 39, paragraph 1 We May Hasten the Day.--By giving the gospel to the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return.--The Desire of Ages, p. 633. (1898) It is the privilege of every Christian, not only to look for, but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain.--Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 22, 23. (1904) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 What happened to the children of Israel after they were liberated from Egyptian slavery?.............. etc John, again... I don't think you see even larger picture. Your view God puts up a condition -> Israel does not obey -> God reacts and "changes the plan". Larger view 1) God knows the course of events before they take place 2) God uses circumstances to teach the whole world a series of lessons in faith 3) God's ultimate plan and timing remain unchanged So, in your view, God waits and reacts. In my view, God allows for human deficiencies in his plan, while still achieving the goal of salvation and uses situations to educate people to serve as examples. In your view, God changes times and "waits for people"... thus people direct the history. In my view, God directs the history by managing circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Where do we get the idea that God keeps postponing his schedule because Adventist are not ready? It's humorous at least to think that we can "hasten" the return of the Christ Good calvinism - but poor scripture. Gen 6 God says he repents that He made man. Jer 18 God elaborates on the subject of conditional prophecy. Repeatedly in scripture God states that He responds to the choices man makes. For example - God did not "just so happen" to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden on the very day they "just so happened to choose to sin". God did not "just so happen to go to war with Lucifer" on the same day that Lucifer "just so happened" to choose to war against God. NEITHER did the All-knowing God DESIGN Lucifer to fail or DESIGN/CREATE Adam to fail. And the same principle of free will - continues to be in play to this very day. "Oh how I WANTED to gather your children as a hen gathers her chicks... but YOU would not" Matt 23. The pharisees "Rejected God purpose for them". Luke 7:30 This explains the "Grieving God" description we see in scripture. Luke 19:41-44. The fact that God is all knowing does not change it. The fact that God has a way to "make lemon-aid out of lemons" does not change the fact that His design and purpose was for a sin free world and that his design and purpose was for Israel NOT to fail and His design and purpose was for the Christian church NOT to have gone into apostasy. Etc etc. When finite man attempts to "sit in God's chair" and discount scripture as "not being the lahjah view" because we all know that God is "all-knowing", he immediately finds himself in scripture-denying assertions about God's character. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2009 Yes, I do believe that God knows the future, but that does not interfere with human freedom and human planning. Do you believe: 1) That it was God's plan for humankind to rebel and be destroyed by the Flood? 2) That if people had repented and changed their way, they would have been destroyed by the flood in any case? 3) That it was God's plan for the children of Israel to wander in the wilderness and die there instead of going on into the Promised Land? 4) And that if the people who left Egypt had been faithful and obedient, they would still have died in the wilderness? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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