Members phkrause Posted July 19, 2009 Members Share Posted July 19, 2009 My comment (256983) Robert was to your comment (256896) to musicmans comment (256879). Not to your comment to Gerry I believe. Sorry that sometimes our comments seem to come in different places than we expect. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Mt 12:39,40 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Joh 10:17,18 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." Mt 27:63 and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, `After three days I am to rise again.' Mr 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Maybe someone should have told Jesus He couldn't see past the cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Tell me Robert, when you get through quoting yourself, do you have any goodies left, or does your neighbor have them all? According to your own words you shouldn't have anything left at all. What are you doing with a computer? Shame on you, that should belong to your neighbor. I don't doubt the depth of God's love. You're preaching to the choir there, what I doubt is your extreme view: that you shouldn't even have the natural love for yourself that God gives us and tells us to have. I also doubt that you follow that view like you're telling pk to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Amen Wayfinder!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo We are talking about the commandment that says: Love your neighbor as yourself, And Jesus didn't fulfill this? Quote: which if I understand you correctly means I am to take that natural love for myself that I was born with and direct it to my neighbor. That's correct....The spirit of God's law requires it! Use evil, corrupted love to love others? ABSURD!!!! WHERE in the Bible does God ever require any one to use evil, corrupted love to love others with? WHERE? Quote: Quote: But you say that kind of love for self is evil, did you not? Self-love is the essence of all sin... Please show from Scripture where it says self-love is the essence of all sin. Self-centeredness, yes, I agree 100%. Jesus stated the requirement of the law in another way: "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Mt 7:12 ESV. Quote: That's why I bring up the question, if my natural love for self is evil, why would Jesus ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love? It's evil because it's direct towards you....Instead of looking out for number 1, you, redirect it towards your neighbor instead. That's agape....What you have...what I have is a u-turn agape. We are born with a love bent towards self....This is our condition since the fall. U-turn agape? Sounds "bent" to me!!! As someone already pointed out, the commandment is: You shall love your neighbor AS [in the same manner NOT INSTEAD OF] yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 19, 2009 Quote: Love your neighbor AS you love yourself. So, you read it thus: Love yourself and love your neighbor.... See, we are back to this heresy. It doesn't say to continue to love yourself. It says love your neighbor, how? As you love yourself. If you loved your neighbor as you naturally love yourself, then you neighbor would have all your goodies....Instead you've been loving yourself a lot and your neighbor? well, he doesn't have the goodies now does he? Why? You are too busy loving yourself! This is sin and hence you had to be delivered from under law. See Gal 4:4 The heresy is to construe to commandment to love your neighbor INSTEAD OF yourself! As I pointed out in another post, Jesus stated the requirement of the law another way: "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." IOW, Love your neighbor, i.e. do to your neighbor, AS yourself, i.e. whatever you wish others do to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Gerry, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Mr 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Maybe someone should have told Jesus He couldn't see past the cross. God revealed to Christ that He would be raised in 3 days, but something happened at the cross that God didn't reveal to Christ: God abandoned Christ! Since Jesus was depending on God to raise Him, God's departure completely took Christ off guard. Hence, when God abandoned Christ the hope of the resurrection vanished....He died thinking He was never to be resurrected! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Tell me Robert, when you get through quoting yourself, do you have any goodies left, or does your neighbor have them all? Wipe that smug self-righteous smile off your face! Unlike many I am glad that I have accepted my deliverance from under law.....It's called the gospel....Under law you must live Christ's life for He fulfilled the law....Under grace you are accepted "in Christ" and experience, to varying degrees, agape in the life....No genuine experience, no real faith...no salvation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 As someone already pointed out, the commandment is: You shall love your neighbor AS [in the same manner NOT INSTEAD OF] yourself! Right...now love your neighbor just as you love yourself....Are you doing this? If so, why doesn't your neighbor have at least 1/2 of your goodies? On the cross, abandoned by God, Christ defeated our self-love (our bent to self) and instead of coming down and saving Himself, He died the 2nd death....He gave up heaven, not for 3 days, but for eternity so that His enemies could take His place....Where's the self-love in that type of love? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Joh 10:17,18 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." Maybe Jesus only thought He had authority to do this. Again I say, maybe somebody should have told Jesus He couldn't see past the cross. Jesus says, His Father gave Him this authority, must have misunderstood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Gerry wrote: "Use evil, corrupted love to love others? ABSURD!!!! WHERE in the Bible does God ever require any one to use evil, corrupted love to love others with? WHERE?" Ok, let me try this on you: 1st Tim: 1:20 "...whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme." And; 1Cor. 5:5 "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." And perhaps Gal. 2:11 "But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned." Whoa there big fella-- Gerry, I tried to find bible verses but all of the ones above were from Paul--and not from God. I give up--I guess you are right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 maybe somebody should have told Jesus He couldn't see past the cross. Jesus says, His Father gave Him this authority, must have misunderstood. You must make the distinction between Christ as man and Christ as God....As God, Christ laid aside His Deity....He gave the independent use over to His Father. All His life He was completely dependent upon the Father and that includes the resurrection. At the resurrection God handed back to Christ His Divinity. At that point His Deity was restored and as God He became self-aware. He became omniscient again. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Rob, I stand corrected, if it is true. Where is your statement supported in scripture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Gerry, I tried to find bible verses but all of the ones above were from Paul--and not from God. I give up--I guess you are right! You misunderstand Paul....You are using your intellect, which is stupidity in areas of spirituality, to denounce things you can't understand. Again, Paul is not to be rejected. Reject his letters, given by God, and you reject God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Rob, I stand corrected, if it is true. Where is your statement supported in scripture? But some will argue, “How could Christ die the second death? He predicted His resurrection, and He actually rose the third day. How could He experience it?” First of all, the Bible says so. Heb. 2:9: “He tasted death for all men.” It could not be the first death because believers who accept Christ still have to die the first death. Then look at what Paul says in 2 Tim. 1:7-10. He says that Christ, through the cross, has “abolished death.” If He abolished death why do Christians die? Because He abolished only the second death, not the first death. Rev. 20:6 tells us that those who have part in the first resurrection, i.e., the believers, on such the second death has no power. Why? Because there was One who was willing to go through it for us, to taste it. The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else. Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race. [js] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 >>You misunderstand Paul....You are using your intellect, which is stupidity, do denounce things you can't understand. Again, Paul is not to be rejected. Reject his letters, given by God, and you reject God.<< Rob, you know this for a fact, or is this your personal opinion. If you are so certain that Paul is who he says he is, ask God to let you spend eternity with Paul and He may grant you request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Rob, you know this for a fact, or is this your personal opinion. If you are so certain that Paul is who he says he is, ask God to let you spend eternity with Paul and He may grant you request. Paul makes up 53% of the NT....He was picked by God Himself to bring the gospel to the Gentiles....Without Paul we couldn't understand the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Wipe that smug self-righteous smile off your face! Unlike many I am glad that I have accepted my deliverance from under law.....It's called the gospel....Under law you must live Christ's life for He fulfilled the law....Under grace you are accepted "in Christ" and experience, to varying degrees, agape in the life....No genuine experience, no real faith...no salvation.... No smile, I actually agree with what you say here. But before, you said your neighbor should have all your goodies. That's the extreme part I can't go along with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Rob, you know better than to quote Paul and the unknown writer of Hebrews to me , they carry no weight of proof. That said, Jesus reliance on His Father was not subserviant, Jesus says I and the Father are One, the I AM. Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Then the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, because He said He was God. John 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one Jesus was duty bound to work in perfect harmony with His Father. When Jesus said why have You forsaken Me, He experienced somthing He had never before experienced, a total separation from the Father and and Holy Spirit, to acknowledge anything else about this separation is pure speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 You're not 100% correct in that long post you made. Give me a minute please, I have to find something, and I type slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Wayfinder, how can you discount parts of the Bible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Wipe that smug self-righteous smile off your face! Unlike many I am glad that I have accepted my deliverance from under law.....It's called the gospel....Under law you must live Christ's life for He fulfilled the law....Under grace you are accepted "in Christ" and experience, to varying degrees, agape in the life....No genuine experience, no real faith...no salvation.... No smile, I actually agree with what you say here. But before, you said your neighbor should have all your goodies. That's the extreme part I can't go along with. "Under law" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." That refers to His deity.... Jesus, at the incarnation, set aside the independent use of His Deity.....He grew in wisdom and stature, something Deity already as...in fact Deity is all-knowing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 So Jesus fell short as far as teaching the gospel for the people of God. Paul makes up 53% of the NT because the RCC put it there, or are you not aware of the compilers of the Canon. Hand picked by a god not God. Without Paul we can't understand the gospel, speak for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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