Mary Jo Kopechne

[Neil D]

It seemed fitting to remember her.

None should leave this life without recognition of the loss.

But why today, the day that Kennedy died? Why not yesterday? or tomorrow or every day since MJ died?

You know the reason...It was to show that Ted Kennedy was the cause of her death...And you really don't have personal knowledge of what happened, no matter what all the supposed official reports and 3rd party talking heads can say.

No, this thread says more about YOU and your character than about Ted Kennedy...Like the pharasee who said-"Lord, I am glad I am not like this man, the scumbucket, lowlife of the earth!" And because Ted Kennedy is dead, you are glad that one more freaking liberal is gone....

...nuff said....unless Bonnie want to take a go at it...

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: therebuster

It seemed fitting to remember her.

None should leave this life without recognition of the loss.

But why today, the day that Kennedy died? Why not yesterday? or tomorrow or every day since MJ died?

You know the reason...It was to show that Ted Kennedy was the cause of her death...And you really don't have personal knowledge of what happened, no matter what all the supposed official reports and 3rd party talking heads can say.

No, this thread says more about YOU and your character than about Ted Kennedy...Like the pharasee who said-"Lord, I am glad I am not like this man, the scumbucket, lowlife of the earth!" And because Ted Kennedy is dead, you are glad that one more freaking liberal is gone....

...nuff said....unless Bonnie want to take a go at it...

Not sure if anyone dares to respond once you say "nuff said"

Ted Kennedy was the cause of her death.That cannot be refuted.

I don't know anyone that wished him dead. Or are gleeful about Ted Kennedy being one more liberal that is dead.

Sometimes it is interesting to watch how quickly someone that lived the life a man like Kennedy lived his, becomes far better in death than he ever was in life.

I am more interested in his health care the past 18 months.

Can we expect the same medical care that he received or are we going to be part of Obama's "bundling of medicare payments.

Is it going to be my husband that is given the pain pill instead of treatment?

Why didn't Kennedy go to Cuba? After Micheal Moore and the black delegation was so favorably impressed with Castro?

[Dr. Shane]

I first sobered up in 1985. A guy that I met in AA killed his girlfriend when he was drunk driving. He actually ran her over with his car. It was an accident. He was found guilty of vehicular homicide and sentenced to one year in country jail. The point of this story is that drunk driving wasn't the offense years ago that it is today. When that same thing happens today no one gets away without going to state prison.

Ted Kennedy made a stupid mistake. However in the context of 1969, it wasn't the major crime that it is today. It was viewed as an accident. I think Ted Kennedy is actually guilty of doing things worse than that. I am not impressed with his life at all. I can look at a man like Al Gore Jr and respect him, as a man, and his achievements even though I disagree with him politically on many issues. I can't say that about Ted Kennedy. But when a man dies and people are morning his loss is not the time to talk about the dispicable things he did.

[Woody]

Well said Bonnie. Have you noticed how liberals tend to over-react and make all kinds of claims? Well then ... this is the politics forum. I guess people can make all kinds of claims here.

[bonnie]

Well said Bonnie. Have you noticed how liberals tend to over-react and make all kinds of claims? Well then ... this is the politics forum. I guess people can make all kinds of claims here.

They want the health care bill to carry his name. Then wouldn't it stand to reason that he wanted the same care for us that he received? What about all the other members of this administration. If they want this to be tribute to Kennedy,why wouldn't they want the same health care Kennedy was championing

[there buster]

Quote:

No, this thread says more about YOU and your character than about Ted Kennedy...Like the pharasee who said-"Lord, I am glad I am not like this man, the scumbucket, lowlife of the earth!" And because Ted Kennedy is dead, you are glad that one more freaking liberal is gone....

Jesus said, it is what comes out of a man that defiles him, and all those words came from you.

I did not mention Kennedy. I did not attribute guilt. I did not speculate on your motives or emotions, nor did I express any, except about Mary Jo Kopechne.

Your post is off topic and an inappropriate personal attack. Please let the rest of us get back on topic.

As to the one line which was somewhat on topic:

Quote:

But why today, the day that Kennedy died? Why not yesterday? or tomorrow or every day since MJ died?

Actually, I have remembered her death many, many times. Not every day, but many days. I remember that had help been summoned, she might have lived, had children and grandchildren. I remember that several houses were nearby the scene, where help might have been summoned. I remember that the records were sealed for many years.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I first sobered up in 1985. A guy that I met in AA killed his girlfriend when he was drunk driving. He actually ran her over with his car. It was an accident. He was found guilty of vehicular homicide and sentenced to one year in country jail. The point of this story is that drunk driving wasn't the offense years ago that it is today. When that same thing happens today no one gets away without going to state prison.

I can guarantee you that the parents of Mary Jo will tell you that the offense is the same today as it was then.

Getting drunk was no accident.Those that have lost loved ones because someone accidently got drunk don't make a distinction

Quote:

Ted Kennedy made a stupid mistake. However in the context of 1969, it wasn't the major crime that it is today. It was viewed as an accident. I think Ted Kennedy is actually guilty of doing things worse than that. I am not impressed with his life at all. I can look at a man like Al Gore Jr and respect him, as a man, and his achievements even though I disagree with him politically on many issues. I can't say that about Ted Kennedy. But when a man dies and people are morning his loss is not the time to talk about the dispicable things he did.

This ......I think Ted Kennedy is actually guilty of doing things worse than that

When someone is responsible for the death of your child it is hard to believe that someone can do worse. Many believe this was not an accident.

But when a man dies and people are morning his loss is not the time to talk about the dispicable things he did.

Mourning the loss of someone is not the same as making the person larger and better than he was in real life.

Ted Kennedy had a opportunity that many don't get. That is to seek forgiveness and what that entails.We can hope and pray that he did

[lazarus]

Buster and Bonnie it would be interesting to see your responses to Kennedy's words.

[Dr. Shane]

I am not arguing that the crime of drunk driving was less of a crime in 1969. My point is that it was not perceived as offensive by society and not punished the same by the judicial system. In 1969 when a drunk driver killed someone it was considered an accident. Today we consider it much more intentional because drunk drivers know the risk when they get in their cars drunk. Society's attitude changed a lot over the 1980s and 1990s. Drunk driving laws got stricter and punishments got more severe.

No one is more against drunk driving than I am but I must be honest when looking at events through history. I do the same thing when looking at slavery laws in the eighteenth and nineteenth century. We have to look at historical events through the eyes of the society at that time in order to see it in perspective. We cannot use today's standards to judge an historical event when those standards have changed over time.

[bonnie]

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[there buster]

Shane, the issue was not drunk driving. If he had reported the accident within a few minutes we might have some idea whether he was legally intoxicated. There was a house with a telephone a short distance from the bridge where it happened. He walked past that house, and several others, back to where the party had been going on. There met with two political advisers, and told them about the incident. None of them notified the police.

Only the next day, after the car had been pulled from the water, did he report the accident.

None of these facts are in dispute.

[bonnie]

Shane, the issue was not drunk driving. If he had reported the accident within a few minutes we might have some idea whether he was legally intoxicated. There was a house with a telephone a short distance from the bridge where it happened. He walked past that house, and several others, back to where the party had been going on. There met with two political advisers, and told them about the incident. None of them notified the police.

Only the next day, after the car had been pulled from the water, did he report the accident.

None of these facts are in dispute.

How much better if they not try to make Ted Kennedy the savior of the common man.

The fact that people can almost canonize this man says a lot about the values they themselves hold.

No one has to stand by his coffin and shout what a immoral man he actually was but neither do they have to make those this man harmed so insignificent

Family members do not have to make him larger than life to love him and grieve.

The total hypocrisy concerning this man is what brings this to the forefront .

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2325066/posts

Waitress Sandwich Kennedy - Dodd Style:

To satisfy everyone's curiosity, we offer the following, compiled from various sources:

In 1985, Dodd and fellow Senator Ted Kennedy were out (with dates) for a night on the town at La Brasserie. Much liquor was consumed--that will come as a shock to those of us familiar with Ted Kennedy--and the two Senators were at one point unaccompanied by their dates. The Senators made a "Waitress Sandwich" out of some poor, unsuspecting waitress.

If you're not entirely sure what that means, let's just say you wouldn't want to be the waitress.

If you are unfamiliar with the term "waitress sandwich" read the rest of the article. Chris Dodd should have been removed from office as surely as ted Kennedy

Many remember what this man was the most well known for.

Frankly there doesn't seem to be a Kennedy that had a moral code above that of a tom cat.

[bonnie]

If there is anything to draw from his life,especially the past year and half is his will and fight to live. And all should be given what he was able to receive

What the best health care was able to offer him in his fight against a brain tumor. The fact he could have the very best of care. Care he could not have received under universal care.

[phkrause]

I know personally I wont miss him. But I was very sad anyway. I've watched many news shows today, plus FoxNews, that had much good to say about this man. And many reported about the bad also. But I was really surprised to hear about all the good that he had done, every week of his life, which I or many did not known about him. I was impressed by what he did for many people everywhere in his home town, his State, his country and in the world. And the only thing that some can think about is few really stupid thing's that he did, but are unwilling to look at all the good that he did. I include myself as one that never thought that he did anything for anyone, I'm glad that I'm wrong. He's definitely going to be missed in congress.

pk

[Woody]

I am not arguing that the crime of drunk driving was less of a crime in 1969. My point is that it was not perceived as offensive by society and not punished the same by the judicial system. In 1969 when a drunk driver killed someone it was considered an accident. Today we consider it much more intentional because drunk drivers know the risk when they get in their cars drunk. Society's attitude changed a lot over the 1980s and 1990s. Drunk driving laws got stricter and punishments got more severe.

No one is more against drunk driving than I am but I must be honest when looking at events through history. I do the same thing when looking at slavery laws in the eighteenth and nineteenth century. We have to look at historical events through the eyes of the society at that time in order to see it in perspective. We cannot use today's standards to judge an historical event when those standards have changed over time.

This is completely unrelated to the important issue here. It is one thing to be drunk and have an accident. It is another thing to kill her by not trying to help her or to get help. Alert: He did not report her being traped in the car till the next day. That is murder in my book.

Reason: His reputation or legacy. The question being ... what was he doing with that young lady that was not his wife? His purpose was damage control. The life of a young lady was not important enough.

If he some how was not responsible for the murder because he was drunk .... what kind of medical care did he receive for his alcohol addiction?

[bonnie]

Quote:

Reason: His reputation or legacy. The question being ... what was he doing with that young lady that was not his wife? His purpose was damage control. The life of a young lady was not important enough.

What I really find interesting is that lazarus singles out "there buster" and myself for a rereading of the event as if that will change the above.

I said nothing concerning his previous conduct nor would I except this somehow seems to be wrong in the eyes of lazarus...

Maybe a question or suggestion to Obama and those are praising Kennedy's committment to universal health care.

Will the ordinary US citizen have the quality of care that will add roughly 18 months to their lives. If not, why not?

If not,what makes Kennedy's life more valuable and worthwhile than any of us

Or will it be more as Obama suggested ,"maybe it is time to just take a pain pill" Would Kennedy be lucky enough to be involved in the medicare payment bundling.

I would be very interested to know the answer to these questions.

They want to give this a big push in Ted Kennedy's name and I am wondering why. Did he put into practise what he so freely preached and wanted for others?

Or did he have the best of care and the most inovative treatment for a brain tumor? If so is that what we can expect under universal health care for our loved ones?

And why did this prompt lazarus to suggest either of us needed to reread the the tragic events of a young woman life and death at the hands of Ted Kennedy?

I never brought up is past conduct. There is much to say about the life of this man and much of it is not flattering.

Is that what lazarus was after

[Woody]

Perhaps Kennedy's Health Care didn't cover help for alcohol addictions and abuse.

[phkrause]

And if it didn't he probably would have paid cash, since he had plenty of it.

pk

[bonnie]

And if it didn't he probably would have paid cash, since he had plenty of it.

pk

HIs paying cash is not the point. Most of us can't,we will have to rely on what he and other liberals are pushing.

Does the bill they are hoping carries his name take care of patients as well as the medical treatment he received.

My mother died of the same thing. There is a lot to the treatment and care of a patient in that circumstance.

My siblings and I saw to the supplemental insurance for my mother and the prescriptions not covered. My mothers care lacked for nothing. From diagnosis to hospice her care was excellent.

Under Obama care can I expect the same in regards to my husband.

Did they bundle medicare payments or would they have had this been other than Ted Kennedy?

Would they have told Ted Kennedy he needed to take a pill instead of the care he received for 18 months

[there buster]

Quote:

The one-car mishap was Teddy Kennedy's fault, of course, no one disputes that. And his actions that followed – not summoning emergency personnel who might have saved her life, the cover-up of the facts, not even reporting the accident until the following morning – likely would have landed a man without political connections in prison.

Here is what is known:

On July 18, 1969, Kennedy and five other men – all but one of whom was married – met six single young women who had worked on Robert Kennedy's 1968 campaign. The women were known as the "Boiler Room Girls" for their tireless work in a windowless office in that ill-fated campaign. All of them, especially Teddy, had grieved hard when Bobby had been killed 15 months earlier. Although he was only 37 years of age, Teddy had lost all three of his brothers; two to assassin's bullets, one in the skies over England in World War II. Mary Jo Kopechne had felt gut-shot by Bobby's murder, too. For all of those people who met in the cottage in the island off Martha's Vineyard, getting together must have been cathartic.

Sometime late at night after an evening of drinking, Kennedy and Kopechne went for a drive in his 1967 Oldsmobile. Kennedy placed the time he left at 11:15 p.m. A local cop who believed he saw the car put the time at 12:40 a.m. – significant at the time because Kennedy testified that he was taking Kopechne to a ferry that ran to Edgartown, a ferry that stopped running at midnight. In any event, Kennedy wasn't headed toward the ferry landing when his car careened off Dike Bridge and into the inlet known as Poucha Pond; they were heading toward the beach.

Kennedy got out of the car alive, Mary Jo Kopechne did not. He said he dived down several times to try and rescue her, before walking back to the cottage where his friends were staying. To do so, he passed at least four houses with working telephones, including one 150 yards from the accident with a porch light on – as well as a firehouse with a pay phone. When he got to the cottage, none of the women were told what happened. According to the 763-page coroner's inquest, this was just the first of a series of appalling decisions Kennedy made that night, decisions that stretch credulity.

First of all, he and two of the men, a cousin named Joseph Gargan and a friend named Paul Markham say they returned to the bridge to try and rescue Mary Jo. (If the Edgartown constable who believes he saw Kennedy was accurate, this was impossible.) Next, the men claimed that they drove Kennedy to the Chappaquiddick ferry landing, where he told them not to tell the other women for fear that they would try to rescue Mary Jo – at great peril to themselves – and assured them that he would report the incident to authorities. Then, the men said, Kennedy dove into the water and swam across the sound to Edgartown himself.

Upon reaching Edgartown, Kennedy went to his room at a local inn – it was now 2:25 a.m., -- where he spent the night, and the following morning engaged in small talk about sailing with a local yachter and agreed to have breakfast with the man when Gargan and Markham showed up about 7:30. They asked him who he'd called about the accident only to receive the astounding reply: no one. Kennedy explained it this way at the inquest: "I just couldn't gain the strength within me, the moral strength, to call Mrs. Kopechne at 2 in the morning and tell her that her daughter was dead." But he hadn't called the cops, either, and wouldn't until 9 a.m.

Not reporting a fatal traffic accident is a felony in most places. On Martha's Vineyard, if the driver is a Kennedy, it's not even a matter of official curiosity: The local police chief never even asked Kennedy why he waited nine hours to report what had happened. The state of Massachusetts, citing Kennedy's excessive speed on the bridge, suspended his license for six months. That was it.

The rest is here.

[Dr. Shane]

It is one thing to be drunk and have an accident. It is another thing to kill her by not trying to help her or to get help.

How long does it take a person to drowned? If she didn't get out of the car I can't imagine she lasted long.

[Woody]

You can survive quite some time depending upon how much air is getting to you while you are trapped in the car and before it sinks. Even when it sinks there can still be air. Of course our good friend made no attempt to find out or save her.