bonnie Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_abortion_shooting By ROXANA HEGEMAN, Associated Press Writer Roxana Hegeman, Associated Press Writer – Sat Aug 29, 3:15 pm ET WICHITA, Kan. – The suspect in the killing of abortion provider George Tiller is in talks with a prominent attorney who represents anti-abortion protesters and has long advocated justifiable homicide as a legal defense in such cases. Scott Roeder, 51, has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder and aggravated assault charges in the May 31 shooting death of Tiller in the foyer of his Wichita church. The Kansas City, Mo., man has refused to discuss his case, but he has told The Associated Press that Tiller's killing was justified to save "the lives of unborn children." Roeder has court-appointed defense attorneys, but he apparently has now turned to Michael Hirsh, the lawyer who represented Paul Hill on appeal for killing a Florida abortion provider and his bodyguard in 1994. Hill was executed in 2003 after the Florida Supreme Court rejected Hirsh's argument that the judge should have allowed Hill to present to jurors his claim that the killings were justified to prevent abortions. Hirsh confirmed he has spoken once to Roeder in recent weeks about representing him, but he has not yet been retained. Hirsh said he had not researched the facts of the case or Kansas law enough to know whether the justifiable homicide defense could be used but said a jury should be allowed to decide if it is applicable. Roeder's trial is scheduled for Sept. 21, though public defender Mark Rudy said he anticipates filing for a continuance. Rudy declined to comment on Hirsh's possible role in the case. Roeder did not respond to a letter from the AP seeking comment. The Florida Supreme Court ruled in denying Hill's appeal that his motivation would not change the outcome of the case. "As a practical matter, permitting a defendant to vindicate his or her criminal activity in this manner would be an invitation for lawlessness," the justices wrote. But Hirsh discounted the suggestion that if a jury acquitted Roeder of murder based on such a defense, it would lead to an open season on abortion doctors. "It has been open season on unborn children for over 30 years. I think on abortionists there will be a bag limit," Hirsh said in a phone interview this week from his Kennesaw, Ga., office. He previously represented anti-abortion activist Regina Dinwiddie of Kansas City, Mo., who was among the first protesters targeted in 1995 under the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances act. Dinwiddie was barred from going within 500 feet of a clinic. The principle of self-defense and the defense of another has been recognized for centuries, Hirsh said. But he acknowledged its use in abortion-related cases has been stifled, saying that in Hill's case, the prosecutor and judge made sure jurors wouldn't hear it. "We don't know if it would have prevailed or not and they were scared out of their mind, and you could see it, that it might have," Hirsh said. "And so it's not fair to say it never worked. Well, it hasn't been tried, either." Richard Levy, a professor at the University of Kansas School of Law, said such defenses can work, but not necessarily in the context of abortion. The law requires that the threat be imminent, the force reasonable in response and the activity involved unlawful. Any claim that killing an abortion provider is justifiable likely would fail, he said. "In particular in the circumstances of the murder of Dr. Tiller there is an imminence problem, there is no imminent threat and, more fundamentally, the activities he was engaged in were legal," Levy said. The question is whether a judge would allow jurors to consider that defense. Wichita attorney E. Jay Greeno, who defended Rachelle "Shelley" Shannon for shooting Tiller in both arms in 1993, said the judge repeatedly shut her down when she tried to testify about abortions the doctor performed. Procedurally, the judge in Roeder's case would likely hold a pretrial hearing on whether Roeder's attorneys could raise that defense at trial. "There might be some hope that there would be jury nullification — the jury would vote to acquit — if there were right-to-life advocates within the jury who accepted the argument that an unborn child is a human being and that abortion is murder and therefore the murder of a physician who performs abortion is also justifiable," Levy said. Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist in Des Moines, Iowa, who in 1996 reprinted the Army of God manual that lists ways to damage abortion clinics, recently wrote a legal brief for Roeder's case on the "necessity defense." He argued that had the alleged shooter not acted, the killing of hundreds of babies every week would have continued. He sent it to Roeder's public defenders, but they have not responded. Rudy acknowledged that Roeder's attorneys have received several suggested defense strategies, adding that they have given them the "appropriate due response." Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 30, 2009 Members Share Posted August 30, 2009 Interesting article Bonnie, thanks for the post. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted August 30, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 30, 2009 Just one question: who's next? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 31, 2009 Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 It could be you Bravus. :):) haha pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted August 31, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 31, 2009 Well, I'm a little worried. If it's justifiable to shoot abortion doctors, can (falsely labeled) 'evolution professors' be far behind? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 31, 2009 Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK Bravus now I understand your question. I think you have a legit fear. If its OK to kill so in so than after awhile its OK to kill others. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK Bravus now I understand your question. I think you have a legit fear. If its OK to kill so in so than after awhile its OK to kill others. pk As wrong as this man was there is a certain logic if someone is radical enough. Abortion is wrong to me,to some it is okay. But to almost anyone the destroying a perfectly healthy baby that would be born alive is flat out murder. Once the baby can survive outside the mother,destroying that child is murder unless the very rare and isolated life of the mother is at stake. I had a baby at 7 months. In the sixties that would be like a 6 month baby now. There is no one on the planet that could tell me my son was a human life at that time. He needed a lot of help but he was my baby,a human life. Babies like him are being terminated and not because of the life of the mother Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 31, 2009 Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 I do understand what your saying Bonnie, but if we justifiy one murder than eventually we start going down the line and saying this ok, and that's ok. Two wrongs never make a right. God is the only one that can judge the taking of a life. I do not believe in abortion but I do believe in pro-choice. The choice's we make, we will have to answer to God. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 I do understand what your saying Bonnie, but if we justifiy one murder than eventually we start going down the line and saying this ok, and that's ok. Two wrongs never make a right. God is the only one that can judge the taking of a life. I do not believe in abortion but I do believe in pro-choice. The choice's we make, we will have to answer to God. pk In no way was I justifying the killing of the DR. To those that are radical it has a certain logic is all I said. Not logic that is right but I can see where some would justify it. Surprised me when I heard someone say "if he can kill babies why can't someone kill him" There should be no pro-choice on the murder of a baby that could live outside the womb. That is murder. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 31, 2009 Members Share Posted August 31, 2009 Didn't mean to imply that you said that, sorry. Was just making a general statement Bonnie. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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