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Fines proposed for going without health insurance

Americans would be fined up to $3,800 for failing to buy health insurance under a plan that circulated in Congress on Tuesday as President Barack Obama met Democratic leaders to search for ways to salvage his health care overhaul.

In advance of what Obama hopes will be a game-changing speech to lawmakers, the one idea that most appeals to the Democrats' liberal base lost ground in Congress. Prospects for a government-run plan to compete with private insurers sank as a leading moderate said he could no longer support the idea.

The fast-moving developments put Obama in a box. As a candidate, he opposed fines to force individuals to buy health insurance, and he supported setting up a government insurance plan...

Just as auto coverage is now mandatory in most states, Baucus would a require that all Americans get health insurance once the system is overhauled. Penalties for failing to get insurance would start at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families. Households making more than three times the federal poverty level - about $66,000 for a family of four - would face the maximum fines. For families, it would be $3,800, and for individuals, $950.

Baucus would offer tax credits to help pay premiums for households making up to three times the poverty level, and for small employers paying about average middle-class wages. People working for companies that offer coverage could avoid the fines by signing up.

The fines pose a dilemma for Obama. As a candidate, the president campaigned hard against making health insurance a requirement, and fining people for not getting it.

"Punishing families who can't afford health care to begin with just doesn't make sense," he said during his party's primaries. At the time, he proposed mandatory insurance only for children.

[text taken from link]

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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Actually, it's not comprehensive auto coverage for one's own car that is required by law...it is liability for wrecking someone else's car, and for accompanying medical claims resulting from that accident, that the law requires. If you choose not to cover your own car or carry your own personal injury coverage, the government cares not a whit about that.

This is quite different from mandating that you must carry comprehensive health insurance for yourself, under penalty of fines!

If someone chooses not to (for whatever reason), what business is it to the government to tell that person otherwise?

What was it C. S. Lewis said? Something like..."Tyranny, exercised for the public good, is the worst tyranny of all"...?

"As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17

"The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne

"The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan

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Driving is also a privilege, not a right, so the government can attach strings to it. None of us have to own a car. We can live where there is mass transportation and live completely without a car. There would be no way out from buying health insurance if this clause is part of the law.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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And that is precisely the problem, Shane: leaving people without a true option.

I can freely choose whether to own a car or not. The government doesn't force me to buy a car, then tell me to cover it with liability to protect the other guy.

Neither is the government the policy issuer, tayloring the policy to its own ends, rather to my own needs.

The driving analogy only goes so far before it fails in the comparison.

With the health care bill under consideration, I see a tremendous misunderstanding/ignorance of normal business economics when it comes to that little word, "option".

This isn't the creation of just another option for people to exercise, as if just another dish on the potluck buffet is being set out. It seems this is what so many think it will be.

However, every section of the bill is designed to take private insurance out of the picture. Completely.

Given how that word "option" is defined in the bill, most small and medium business will off-load their health coverage immediately. There are huge incentives written in for this to happen. People will have no say in this - and many are ignorant of this. This is simple business: cut costs as much as possible to stay competitive.

Right now, health care is a cost that must be maintained to retain the skill to be competitive. With passage of this bill with it current stipulations intact, it will drive the cost economics the other way. Most business people already have this figured out.

Any change in any company's health plan later down the road automatically shifts that company's workers onto the government "option" - and people will have no say in it.

It will boil down to the government "option" or a super expensive insurance borne solely by the worker. This is the real choice being offered.

That's the way the bill is written. The public "option" has many clauses tangled deep within the bill, and many more clauses dependent upon it.

And should they opt out of the government "option" but can't afford to pay for their own policy, Max Baucus is there to make sure they get fined for it. Then, they will be automatically re-enrolled the next year around when they file their taxes.

I'd feel a bit better about it if Government would submit itself to the same limitations under that law - but like every other major pice of legislation, they specifically exempt themselves from the "option" they want us to have.

As the old saying goes...beware of the chef who won't eat his own cooking...

Got to roll...

"As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17

"The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne

"The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan

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Driving is also a privilege, not a right, so the government can attach strings to it. None of us have to own a car. We can live where there is mass transportation and live completely without a car. There would be no way out from buying health insurance if this clause is part of the law.

So, then when you get into an accident, be it a cycle accident, you fall off a cliff while mountain climbing, you inadvertantly drown from either a freshwater or saltwater accident, you force the public to pay for your medical bills....Or you go bankrupt for trying to get well post recovery process......

What's wrong with this picture?

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

 

George Bernard Shaw

 

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People should have the freedom to be stupid. I don't think the government should be in the business of banning stupidity. I have no problem with the 'pay or play' idea for employers. That falls in the same line as the minimum wage and the 40-hour work week. The government can require that all employers provide at least a minimum type of health insurance for their employees.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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Thanks for posting this Shane. This is very interesting.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Thanks for posting this Shane. This is very interesting.

If you haven't heard it yet,Sen. Max Baucus has got a detailed ways to fund health care.

If you can pronounce it ,it will have a tax or a additional tax.

How does anyone think that insurance companies need to cover someone with a pre-existing condition?

Why should I waste my money on insurance while I am healthy. Wait till I need it and then get coverage for pre-existing?

Most would laugh at the thought of waiting for your house to be on fire till getting insurance. Or when your car is totaled call an insurance agent.

How can anyone leaving in the US believe they have a right to tell a private company who they have to insure and at what rate?

You think insurance premiums are high now. Wait. They will either hike it so high they will go under gradually,or they will simply cease.

This is the direction Obama has stated he wants. Single payer and that is government.

Regardless how this is spun,services have to be cut. Medicare cannot handle it now,they are bankrupt.

Coomon sense dictates who will get the best of the services. That is the young adult that is healthy and contributes financially to big daddy.

We have many,many programs available for the poor. They do not need this.

Obama said yesterday in a answer to a question. He acknowledged that most are happy with their insurance plan. This is for the uninsured. We have roughly 10-15 million chonically uninsured. For that amount we could certainly figure out a way that will not run billions and billions year after year.

My husband was just diagnosed with Chronic Obstructive Pulmunary Disease

It has been costly,hard at times to get prescriptions approved. With universal health care who do you think will get the necessary care. My husband is 69. Active,enjoys life.

Our youngest son is 36 and healthy. Which do you think would have the best access to health care.

The canadian couple we spent a day with at the hospital was here in the states because of those type of decisions.

Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this.

Quotes by Susan Gottesman

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President Obama confirmed it. He wants to force all Americans to buy insurance. So how many people will the government have to hire to enforce that?

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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President Obama confirmed it. He wants to force all Americans to buy insurance. So how many people will the government have to hire to enforce that?

I think it was said there were going to be 53 new bureaucracies.

The public sector is growing employment.That should tell everyone something.

Obama isn't upfront about a lot of things in his speech. The Hippa bill prevents insurance companies from cancelling because of illness,not Obama.

He will completely destroy the insurance industry and he has to know that.

Employer's will dump the private insurance in a heartbeat when this goes into affect.

Calling it competition is completely misleading. There is no competition when one company has to make a profit and the other is the government and doesn't have to,they just take what they need,how will the insurance companies compete. he knows it is impossible but sounds good doesn't it.

Most people if they really think about it will realize the medical care cannot remain at the high level it is,be cheaper,and have no cutbacks.

Lot's of people still like that word free from the government. As if the government is a instant cash generating machine. It is but with our money .Government is just like a parasite. They are able to play with our money,make big promises,get your vote,and then offer a boot in the backside if you want more control over your own.

Say what you want about evil capitalism ,without it this country is on a downward spiral. Without economic freedom we will lose most of what we have. And I don't mean money

Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this.

Quotes by Susan Gottesman

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People should have the freedom to be stupid. I don't think the government should be in the business of banning stupidity. I have no problem with the 'pay or play' idea for employers. That falls in the same line as the minimum wage and the 40-hour work week. The government can require that all employers provide at least a minimum type of health insurance for their employees.

Yes, the government can make this stipulation. It would be right in line with current regulations requiring drivers to purchase liability from private insurers. The government is not a provider for car insurance, neither should it be for health/life insurance.

State governments can pass such legislation requiring employers to provide a minimal catastrophic health insurance package. Coupled with tort reform to curtail the lawyer impact on the system, it could even be stipulated the insurance agencies provide such insurance directly to people, creating pools for individuals to join in order to lower costs.

In this way, people are still free to choose whether or not they want to carry insurance, but it becomes easier to pick up the insurance should they desire it.

The rub is that this is not what is being proposed - what is being proposed is a government provider, total comprehensive package that will not - even can not - deliver even a fraction of what has been promised.

"As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17

"The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne

"The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan

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But there is a big difference between car insurance and health insurance. We don't have to own a car. If we decide not to own a car, we don't have to buy insurance.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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Forcing people to outlay more of their own money, even after he has hiked up taxes, blown up the deficit so that on-going double digit inflation is now a virtual lock by 2012, further eroding people's freedom and financial independence.

Erode it all away so that the government, run by a single party, is the only solution for provision for our daily needs. And when even then needs aren't met, it's the faceless mass of bureacracy that prevents any culpability and blame.

And to think that powers wanting to use that system to promote worship of false gods and false Christs could easily hijack such a monstrosity - if it didn't supplant God first.

Bleeding hearts are about to find out how much emotional causes are so easily translated into tyranny, should this thing pass as Obama has called for it to.

The game is afoot, my friends...

"As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17

"The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne

"The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan

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But there is a big difference between car insurance and health insurance. We don't have to own a car. If we decide not to own a car, we don't have to buy insurance.

Yep, brother. I believe I said that earlier...but my memory may be going out...

"As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17

"The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne

"The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan

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Forcing people to outlay more of their own money, even after he has hiked up taxes, blown up the deficit so that on-going double digit inflation is now a virtual lock by 2012, further eroding people's freedom and financial independence.

Erode it all away so that the government, run by a single party, is the only solution for provision for our daily needs. And when even then needs aren't met, it's the faceless mass of bureacracy that prevents any culpability and blame.

And to think that powers wanting to use that system to promote worship of false gods and false Christs could easily hijack such a monstrosity - if it didn't supplant God first.

Bleeding hearts are about to find out how much emotional causes are so easily translated into tyranny, should this thing pass as Obama has called for it to.

The game is afoot, my friends...

You're excactly right, and that's a whole lot of truth for one post.

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Anyone who has served on a church board will appreciate the saying, "A camel is a horse that was put together by a committee."

Wonder how it would look after 53 committees got done with it?

From the House health care deform bill.

Quote:
H.R. 3200.

1. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 123, p. 30)

2. Health Choices Administration (Section 141, p. 41)

3. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 144, p. 47)

4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 163, p. 57)

5. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 164(d), p. 70)

6. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 72)

7. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Administration Commissioner (Section 206(B), p. 106)

8. Special Inspector General for the Health Insurance Exchange (Section 206©, p. 107)

9. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 207, p. 109)

10. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 208, p. 111)

11. "Public Health Insurance Option" (Section 221, p. 116)

12. Ombudsman for "Public Health Insurance Option" (Section 221(d), p. 117)

13. Account for receipts and disbursements for "Public Health Insurance Option" (Section 222(B), p. 119)

14. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191, p. 380)

15. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for "culturally and linguistically appropriate services" (Section 1222, p. 405)

16. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 438)

17. Accountable Care Organization pilot program (Section 1301, p. 443)

18. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 462)

19. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 468)

20. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 502)

21. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 505)

22. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 519)

23. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1412(B)(1), p. 546)

24. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for nursing facilities (Section 1412 (B)(2), p. 548)

25. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1413(a)(3), p. 559)

26. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section 1413(B)(3), p. 565)

27. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing facilities and nursing facilities (Section 1422, p. 607)

28. Demonstration program for approved teaching health centers with respect to Medicare GME (Section 1502(d), p. 674)

29. Pilot program to develop anti-fraud compliance systems for Medicare providers (Section 1635, p. 716)

30. Medical home pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1722, p. 780)

31. Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund (Section 1802, p. 824)

32. "Identifiable office or program" within CMS to "provide for improved coordination between Medicare and Medicaid in the case of dual eligibles" (Section 1905, p. 852)

33. Public Health Investment Fund (Section 2002, p. 859)

34. Scholarships for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 870)

35. Loan repayment program for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 873)

36. Program for training medical residents in community-based settings (Section 2214, p. 882)

37. Grant program for training in dentistry programs (Section 2215, p. 887)

38. Public Health Workforce Corps (Section 2231, p. 898)

39. Public health workforce scholarship program (Section 2231, p. 900)

40. Public health workforce loan forgiveness program (Section 2231, p. 904)

41. Grant program for innovations in interdisciplinary care (Section 2252, p. 917)

42. Advisory Committee on Health Workforce Evaluation and Assessment (Section 2261, p. 920)

43. Prevention and Wellness Trust (Section 2301, p. 932)

44. Clinical Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 941)

45. Community Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 947)

46. Grant program for community prevention and wellness research (Section 2301, p. 950)

47. Grant program for community prevention and wellness services (Section 2301, p. 951)

48. Grant program for public health infrastructure (Section 2301, p. 955)

49. Center for Quality Improvement (Section 2401, p. 965)

50. Assistant Secretary for Health Information (Section 2402, p. 972)

51. Grant program to support the operation of school-based health clinics (Section 2511, p. 993)

52. National Medical Device Registry (Section 2521, p. 1001)

53. Grants for labor-management programs for nursing training (Section 2531, p. 1008)

“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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Careful, there-buster!

You've read the bill - and now a certifiable danger to the government!

If you see a couple of purple shirts on the sidewalk with you, cross the street!

"As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17

"The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne

"The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan

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Quote:
Obama isn't upfront about a lot of things in his speech.

That's an understatement.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Anyone who has served on a church board will appreciate the saying, "A camel is a horse that was put together by a committee."

Wonder how it would look after 53 committees got done with it?

From the House health care deform bill.

Quote:
H.R. 3200.

1. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 123, p. 30)

2. Health Choices Administration (Section 141, p. 41)

3. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 144, p. 47)

4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 163, p. 57)

5. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 164(d), p. 70)

6. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 72)

7. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Administration Commissioner (Section 206(B), p. 106)

8. Special Inspector General for the Health Insurance Exchange (Section 206©, p. 107)

9. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 207, p. 109)

10. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 208, p. 111)

11. "Public Health Insurance Option" (Section 221, p. 116)

12. Ombudsman for "Public Health Insurance Option" (Section 221(d), p. 117)

13. Account for receipts and disbursements for "Public Health Insurance Option" (Section 222(B), p. 119)

14. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191, p. 380)

15. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for "culturally and linguistically appropriate services" (Section 1222, p. 405)

16. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 438)

17. Accountable Care Organization pilot program (Section 1301, p. 443)

18. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 462)

19. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 468)

20. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 502)

21. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 505)

22. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 519)

23. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1412(B)(1), p. 546)

24. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for nursing facilities (Section 1412 (B)(2), p. 548)

25. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1413(a)(3), p. 559)

26. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section 1413(B)(3), p. 565)

27. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing facilities and nursing facilities (Section 1422, p. 607)

28. Demonstration program for approved teaching health centers with respect to Medicare GME (Section 1502(d), p. 674)

29. Pilot program to develop anti-fraud compliance systems for Medicare providers (Section 1635, p. 716)

30. Medical home pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1722, p. 780)

31. Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund (Section 1802, p. 824)

32. "Identifiable office or program" within CMS to "provide for improved coordination between Medicare and Medicaid in the case of dual eligibles" (Section 1905, p. 852)

33. Public Health Investment Fund (Section 2002, p. 859)

34. Scholarships for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 870)

35. Loan repayment program for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 873)

36. Program for training medical residents in community-based settings (Section 2214, p. 882)

37. Grant program for training in dentistry programs (Section 2215, p. 887)

38. Public Health Workforce Corps (Section 2231, p. 898)

39. Public health workforce scholarship program (Section 2231, p. 900)

40. Public health workforce loan forgiveness program (Section 2231, p. 904)

41. Grant program for innovations in interdisciplinary care (Section 2252, p. 917)

42. Advisory Committee on Health Workforce Evaluation and Assessment (Section 2261, p. 920)

43. Prevention and Wellness Trust (Section 2301, p. 932)

44. Clinical Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 941)

45. Community Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 947)

46. Grant program for community prevention and wellness research (Section 2301, p. 950)

47. Grant program for community prevention and wellness services (Section 2301, p. 951)

48. Grant program for public health infrastructure (Section 2301, p. 955)

49. Center for Quality Improvement (Section 2401, p. 965)

50. Assistant Secretary for Health Information (Section 2402, p. 972)

51. Grant program to support the operation of school-based health clinics (Section 2511, p. 993)

52. National Medical Device Registry (Section 2521, p. 1001)

53. Grants for labor-management programs for nursing training (Section 2531, p. 1008)

Enough to make one sick to one's stomach.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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