How much of Scripture is inspired?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Therefore, if we continue to sin we do not display the nature of Jesus Christ, therefore we ARE NOT born again. Once we become born again our very nature becomes like that of our Master. When that occurs we will NOT sin, we will be righteous; and then we will be sealed in righteousness, and will be prepared for service to the world (the bride) during the time of the Great Tribulation.

Are you saying that you are not born again, MM? Or are you saying that you don't sin anymore? I can't quite grasp what you're saying here. If you're saying you don't sin anymore, I've got news for ya...

Michael

And if he's saying he's not born again, then he's not a true follower of Jesus Christ.

[Twilight]

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:19-21.

The 'light' described in this verse is Truth, which is defined by Jesus Christ as Himself, and (when He left the earth for Heaven) His Holy Spirit, who keeps the learning of the light (truth) given by Jesus Christ going.

This indicates the operational order of having the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, actually come into you and dwell in you; you must first practice the truth, THEN the Holy Spirit will come to you.

Continuing to sin AFTER having 'received the Holy Spirit' indicates either that you didn't actually receive the Holy Spirit in the first place, OR that the spirit that you received WAS NOT the true Holy Spirit.

Now once someone has acknowledged their need of God they must willingly put themselves inside the process of Sanctification. During this process the Holy Spirit works with them in replacing the lies that make up their life with the truth, which will define their 'new' life in Jesus Christ. But there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit work with you and guiding you in the process of achieving the goal of Sanctification and believing that in spite of the fact that you still harbor lies, deceit and evil in your heart the Holy Spirit will come in and dwell in you just because you have asked for it.

God CANNOT dwell in anyone in whom there is sin. God and sin cannot co-exist in the same place. This is why God kicked Satan out of Heaven after the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Until that moment in time Satan had access to Heaven, and God legally could not prevent it. After the resurrection Truth triumphed over lies and God had the legal authority to remove Satan and his evil angels from the Heavens and restrict his presence to the earth.

God and Satan are in battle over the souls of mankind. Satan wants human beings to believe that they can become immune to evil merely by acquiring the 'Holy Spirit', which will make it impossible for them to be lost. Satan wants Christians to believe that they can have the Holy Spirit come into them and live in them even though they are unrighteous, and continue to sin and still be saved. This is a lie.

If a person wants the Holy Spirit to dwell in them then they must first make a place in themselves for the Spirit that is suitable. The ONLY suitable place for the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ is in a righteous person.

Can the Holy Spirit give birth to the unrighteousness? We show that we have not been born of God if we continue in sin after we say we have been 'born again'. The human birthing process in which a mother gives birth to her child can be long, arduous and painful. It just plain hurts. So why do Christians insist that the 'new birth' is as easy as saying the 'sinners prayer', accepting Jesus as our personal savior, and then having the Holy Spirit come into us right then in a fairly painless and benign way?

Please give this some serious thought. Ask yourself, "Why is it that the 'church' is not farther along in spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom to a world so desperately in need of hope?" Is it possible that the current gospel that we have been taking to the world is actually the wrong one? If the mark of a Christian is that they have already been 'born again' by the Holy Spirit then why do we continue in sin?

Being born again of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, is the end result of the process of rebirth wherein our sinful natures are replaced by the nature of God as seen in Jesus Christ. It is not the Nature of Jesus Christ to sin (although He could have). Therefore, if we continue to sin we do not display the nature of Jesus Christ, therefore we ARE NOT born again. Once we become born again our very nature becomes like that of our Master. When that occurs we will NOT sin, we will be righteous; and then we will be sealed in righteousness, and will be prepared for service to the world (the bride) during the time of the Great Tribulation.

Jesus said "you must be born again".

This means you are a "baby" in Christ.

Then you grow up "into" the fullness of a spirit led man.

Jesus comes into the heart when we recognise our need.

Not when we are perfect.

Then we grow up into perfection.

This was shown by the outpouring of the Spirit at pentecost.

Those receiving it, received it by faith.

Not by "works of perfection".

My friend, we can and are often possessed by evil spirits.

If you do not believe this, then the enemy can take control of you, force all sorts of strange and wonderful doctrines into your mind and guess what?

You will think you are one of the most "enlightened" of all Christians.

The Holy Spirit "leads" into all truth.

It does not come when "all truth" is received.

-----------------

The gift of the Spirit is of course established after repentance of course.

But repentance is not the same as "perfect works".

God bless you my friend.

Mark :-)

[John317]

Continuing to sin AFTER having 'received the Holy Spirit' indicates either that you didn't actually receive the Holy Spirit in the first place, OR that the spirit that you received WAS NOT the true Holy Spirit.

.... if we continue to sin we do not display the nature of Jesus Christ, therefore we ARE NOT born again. Once we become born again our very nature becomes like that of our Master. When that occurs we will NOT sin, we will be righteous;....

Do you know of anyone who, according to your definition, has received the Holy Spirit or been born again?

It appears to me you are saying that those who are are born again will no longer have sinful human natures. Is that your meaning? If so, where does the Bible teach this?

Has anyone on earth experienced this yet?

[John317]

My friend, we can and are often possessed by evil spirits.

Could you explain this a little? I'm not sure I understand you.

Do you mean many people can be and are possessed by demons?

There's a distinction between harassment, control, and possession. People can be harassed and controlled by demons without the demons dwelling inside one's body. Possession is when the demon/s actually take up their dwelling inside the person's body. All 3 of these things happen far more frequently than many think.

[John317]

You missunderstand me. An evil spirit can possess a Christian. Satan is not prohibited from, or denied access to, Christians.

Can you explain what you mean by "possess"?

I think I agree with you, but am interested in understanding how you understand evil spirits can possess a Christian. Do you know personally of any instances where this occurred?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

My friend, we can and are often possessed by evil spirits.

Could you explain this a little? I'm not sure I understand you.

Do you mean many people can be and are possessed by demons?

There's a distinction between harassment, control, and possession. People can be harassed and controlled by demons without the demons dwelling inside one's body. Possession is when the demon/s actually take up their dwelling inside the person's body. All 3 of these things happen far more frequently than many think.

We often consider the extreme cases of "possession" in the bible as the definition of "possession".

But there are varying forms of "possession" that evil spirits possess over Christians.

If I submit to temptation, and follow an evil spirits leading, then they would be in control of me, they "own" me and "possess" me.

So I am not defining a distinction, as any time the will is controlled by the enemy, we are "possessed" or "owned".

Your thoughts?

Mark

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

Could you explain this a little? I'm not sure I understand you.

Do you mean many people can be and are possessed by demons?

There's a distinction between harassment, control, and possession. People can be harassed and controlled by demons without the demons dwelling inside one's body. Possession is when the demon/s actually take up their dwelling inside the person's body. All 3 of these things happen far more frequently than many think. [/quote']

We often consider the extreme cases of "possession" in the bible as the definition of "possession".

But there are varying forms of "possession" that evil spirits possess over Christians.

If I submit to temptation, and follow an evil spirits leading, then they would be in control of me, they "own" me and "possess" me.

So I am not defining a distinction, as any time the will is controlled by the enemy, we are "possessed" or "owned".

Your thoughts?

Mark

I don't think that constitutes demon posession Mark. People can do all kinds of wrong things without actually being posessed by a demon.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

You missunderstand me. An evil spirit can possess a Christian. Satan is not prohibited from, or denied access to, Christians.

Can you explain what you mean by "possess"?

I think I agree with you, but am interested in understanding how you understand evil spirits can possess a Christian. Do you know personally of any instances where this occurred?

I personally fend off many possession attempts in a normal day...

What is temptation other than an attempt of possession from an evil spirits point of view?

Welcome your thoughts.

[Musicman1228]

No, I am not born again, and as far as I can tell no one yet is. The idea that our being born again immediately does NOT come from the words of Jesus Christ. That idea comes from someone else. I AM in the process of sanctification through the power of the Holy Spirit. Can anyone serve two masters? Not according to Jesus. The Spirit of God cannot live with the spirit of Satan. If you say that this is possible then you do not have the Holy Spirit working with you.

My understanding is that the Holy Spirit works WITH you until such a time as you are perfected in the truth, and THEN you become born again. The misunderstanding comes when we view our baptism in the same light as the baptism of Jesus Christ by John. There is a BIG difference between what happens to us and what happened when Jesus came up from under the water. When Jesus went under the water HE HAD NO SIN IN HIM. Jesus was baptized to show us what we must do to begin the process of sanctification. We must first be baptized, which indicates that we have been justified-that is, cleansed on the outside. This shows a declaration of intent to become sanctified, it does not mean that we are sanctified instantly, at that moment.

Jesus was the completely righteous Son of God, declared so by God Himself when He declared, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt.3:17.

This is contradicted by Paul when he says;

and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom.1:4.

. . . and shows that Paul was not lead by God to say this.

If Paul is wrong about this what else is he wrong about.

The idea that when we are baptized we become immediately 'born again' comes from the pen of Paul, not from the words of Jesus Christ.

This is why I totally disagree with you, Robert. I am certainly NOT a Christian, if being a Christian means believing as you do. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and Him alone. This you cannot, or will not say because you put the words of a human being above the words of God as expressed in Jesus Christ.

The words of God declaring that Jesus was His beloved Son will also be declared about us when we are just like Jesus, righteous and without spot or blemish. God was able to make that declaration because Jesus HAD NO SIN IN HIM when He came out of the water. This we cannot say. For us it takes time to become righteous, which is why the Holy Spirit works with us to accomplish this task. This shows that just because you SAY you are 'born again' in theory does not mean you are 'born again' in fact, until you demonstrate that fact by not sinning.

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John3:21.

I have no doubt most of you will tell me how wrong I am in this understanding, and that is your right. Yet the one thing you cannot do is prove your beliefs in this without using the words of someone (s) other than Jesus Christ. That is because Jesus Christ is not the author of your Christianity, Paul is-and without him you have no hope of making your case. So whether you agree or disagree with me does not matter. What matters is that you refuse to agree with the words of Jesus Christ.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I don't think that constitutes demon posession Mark. People can do all kinds of wrong things without actually being posessed by a demon.

It may be a "strong" way of viewing it Richard, but some quick research threw up these, which do not "prove" the point, but introduce some interesting thoughts:

When to Rebuke the Evil Spirit.--I have often seen the little one throw itself and scream if its will was crossed in any way. This is the time to rebuke the evil spirit. The enemy will try to control the minds of our children, but shall we allow him to mold them according to his will? These little ones cannot discern what spirit is influencing them, and it is the duty of parents to exercise judgment and discretion for them. Their habits must be carefully watched. Evil tendencies are to be restrained, and the mind stimulated in favor of the right. The child should be encouraged in every effort to govern itself. {CG 93.1}

------------

There are those over whom the control of Satan seems for a time to be broken; through the grace of God they are set free from the evil spirit that has held dominion over the soul. But they do not surrender themselves to God daily, that Christ might dwell in the heart; and when the evil spirit returns with "seven other spirits more wicked than himself," he is wholly dominated by the power of evil. {17MR 313.3}

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural working, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies, is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. {17MR 314.1}

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I don't think that constitutes demon posession Mark. People can do all kinds of wrong things without actually being posessed by a demon.

Here is another more famous one Richard:

Either God or Satan Controls.--Satan takes control of every mind that is not decidedly under the control of the Spirit of God.--Lt 57, 1895 (TM 79). {1MCP 13.3}

[Twilight]

No, I am not born again, and as far as I can tell no one yet is. The idea that our being born again immediately does NOT come from the words of Jesus Christ. That idea comes from someone else. I AM in the process of sanctification through the power of the Holy Spirit. Can anyone serve two masters? Not according to Jesus. The Spirit of God cannot live with the spirit of Satan. If you say that this is possible then you do not have the Holy Spirit working with you.

My understanding is that the Holy Spirit works WITH you until such a time as you are perfected in the truth, and THEN you become born again. The misunderstanding comes when we view our baptism in the same light as the baptism of Jesus Christ by John. There is a BIG difference between what happens to us and what happened when Jesus came up from under the water. When Jesus went under the water HE HAD NO SIN IN HIM. Jesus was baptized to show us what we must do to begin the process of sanctification. We must first be baptized, which indicates that we have been justified-that is, cleansed on the outside. This shows a declaration of intent to become sanctified, it does not mean that we are sanctified instantly, at that moment.

Jesus was the completely righteous Son of God, declared so by God Himself when He declared, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt.3:17.

This is contradicted by Paul when he says;

and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom.1:4.

. . . and shows that Paul was not lead by God to say this.

If Paul is wrong about this what else is he wrong about.

The idea that when we are baptized we become immediately 'born again' comes from the pen of Paul, not from the words of Jesus Christ.

This is why I totally disagree with you, Robert. I am certainly NOT a Christian, if being a Christian means believing as you do. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and Him alone. This you cannot, or will not say because you put the words of a human being above the words of God as expressed in Jesus Christ.

The words of God declaring that Jesus was His beloved Son will also be declared about us when we are just like Jesus, righteous and without spot or blemish. God was able to make that declaration because Jesus HAD NO SIN IN HIM when He came out of the water. This we cannot say. For us it takes time to become righteous, which is why the Holy Spirit works with us to accomplish this task. This shows that just because you SAY you are 'born again' in theory does not mean you are 'born again' in fact, until you demonstrate that fact by not sinning.

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John3:21.

I have no doubt most of you will tell me how wrong I am in this understanding, and that is your right. Yet the one thing you cannot do is prove your beliefs in this without using the words of someone (s) other than Jesus Christ. That is because Jesus Christ is not the author of your Christianity, Paul is-and without him you have no hope of making your case. So whether you agree or disagree with me does not matter. What matters is that you refuse to agree with the words of Jesus Christ.

Does a mother bare a child fully formed?

When a baby is born, it is young, dependant and needs to grow.

You grieve the Holy Spirit with this pure and utter nonsense MM.

The moment anyone receives the gift of the Holy Spirit they are born again.

That is Jesus' plain teaching.

You are rejecting His words.

You cannot earn your way to heaven MM, it is impossible.

And you also cannot earn your way to being "born again".

You are incapable, you cannot do it.

This is why God pronounced you as worthy of death.

Because there is absolutely no hope of you meeting His standards.

You are a failure, a miserable wretch, poor blind and naked.

That is Jesus' verdict.

Get off of your high horse my friend, stop relying on yourself and realise that YOU CANNOT DO IT!

In love,

Mark

[Guest]

Does a mother bare a child fully formed?

When a baby is born, it is young, dependant and needs to grow.

You grieve the Holy Spirit with this pure and utter nonsense MM.

The moment anyone receives the gift of the Holy Spirit they are born again.

That is Jesus' plain teaching.

You are rejecting His words.

You cannot earn your way to heaven MM, it is impossible.

And you also cannot earn your way to being "born again".

You are incapable, you cannot do it.

This is why God pronounced you as worthy of death.

Because there is absolutely no hope of you meeting His standards.

You are a failure, a miserable wretch, poor blind and naked.

That is Jesus' verdict.

Get off of your high horse my friend, stop relying on yourself and realise that YOU CANNOT DO IT!

In love,

Mark

Amen Mark,

You pointed out the facts much better than I could have. And said it nicer than I could have also.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Does a mother bare a child fully formed?

When a baby is born, it is young, dependant and needs to grow.

You grieve the Holy Spirit with this pure and utter nonsense MM.

The moment anyone receives the gift of the Holy Spirit they are born again.

That is Jesus' plain teaching.

You are rejecting His words.

You cannot earn your way to heaven MM, it is impossible.

And you also cannot earn your way to being "born again".

You are incapable, you cannot do it.

This is why God pronounced you as worthy of death.

Because there is absolutely no hope of you meeting His standards.

You are a failure, a miserable wretch, poor blind and naked.

That is Jesus' verdict.

Get off of your high horse my friend, stop relying on yourself and realise that YOU CANNOT DO IT!

In love,

Mark

Amen Mark,

You pointed out the facts much better than I could have. And said it nicer than I could have also.

I grieve my friend, I really do...

There is the process of entering into full union with God, but that is a maturity that comes to the born again believer.

I think MM is confusing this with being born again.

Mark

[John317]

Either God or Satan Controls.--Satan takes control of every mind that is not decidedly under the control of the Spirit of God.--Lt 57, 1895 (TM 79). {1MCP 13.3}

This is very true, but there is a difference between "control" and "demon possession." Not all who are controlled by Satan are possessed by demons. However, all who are possessed by demons are under Satan's control.

There is also harassment. In other words, there are different levels of Satan's influence and power over people. It begins with temptation and may progress to harassment and then on to control and finally possession.

People who are under the control of the Spirit of God can be both tempted and harassed. But no person controlled by the Holy Spirit can be simultaneously controlled or possessed by demons.

[Guest]

No, I am not born again, and as far as I can tell no one yet is.

MM, if you are not born again, then you are not a true follower of Jesus Christ, and you are not part of the "Kingdom of Heaven" that you tell people they have to be part of first.

And if no one is born again, then there is no such thing as the KOH according to your definition of what the KOH is. You say it is God's church here on earth, but if no one is born again, then he dosn't even have a church here on earth.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You see, your idea that being born again comes last instead of first, cannot stand the test of scripture. Without even using Paul.

But Paul drives the point home, and is in perfect harmony with Jesus.

[John317]

No, I am not born again, and as far as I can tell no one yet is.

Based on what Christ said to Nicodemus in John 3: 3, 5, it would seem from what you say here that no one has seen or entered the kingdom of God.

But Jesus said, "That which is born of the Spirit IS spirit,"(v. 6) and, "So IS everyone who IS born of the Spirit"(v.8). His words indicate that it has happened. The verb is in the present tense. Jesus does not use the verb in the future tense, as in, "So will be everyone who WILL BE born of the Spirit."

If neither you nor anyone else has ever been "born again," who will be able to enter into the kingdom of God? Jesus clearly said that no one but those "born again" will see or enter His Kingdom.

[John317]

We often consider the extreme cases of "possession" in the bible as the definition of "possession".

But there are varying forms of "possession" that evil spirits possess over Christians.

If I submit to temptation, and follow an evil spirits leading, then they would be in control of me, they "own" me and "possess" me.

So I am not defining a distinction, as any time the will is controlled by the enemy, we are "possessed" or "owned".

Your thoughts?

Check out the following links. The first two links are to some of a book online about the subject, written by a well-respected SDA minister who had about 20 years of experience working with many people who were harassed, controlled, and possessed. He wrote about 7 books on the topic, several of which were published by the Review and Herald Publishing and the Pacific Press.

http://www.lnfbooks.com/descpix/w/war2004te__va001_view%201st%20chapter.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4IjxRY...;q=&f=false

http://www.lnfbooks.com/descpix/w/war2004te__va001_view%201st%20chapter.pdf

[Musicman1228]

Mark, Richard; prove it. You are saying things but I don't see the words of Jesus to back up what you say. So I say again, prove it.

Now I will ask you a question in return; If you are born again then why do you still sin, why are you still unrighteous, why do you say that you can't keep the Commandment, why do you insist that you can't be obedient to the Covenant?

And what, no comment about what I pointed out about Jesus being acknowledged as the Son of God at His baptism by His Father, when Paul says He was 'declared' the Son of God at the resurrection? I am most interested in seeing how you parse this one.

[Guest]

No, I am not born again, and as far as I can tell no one yet is.

MM, if you are not born again, then you are not a true follower of Jesus Christ, and you are not part of the "Kingdom of Heaven" that you tell people they have to be part of first.

And if no one is born again, then there is no such thing as the KOH according to your definition of what the KOH is. You say it is God's church here on earth, but if no one is born again, then he dosn't even have a church here on earth.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You see, your idea that being born again comes last instead of first, cannot stand the test of scripture. Without even using Paul.

But Paul drives the point home, and is in perfect harmony with Jesus.

[Guest]

Now I will ask you a question in return; If you are born again then why do you still sin, why are you still unrighteous, why do you say that you can't keep the Commandment, why do you insist that you can't be obedient to the Covenant?

I have never said any of this. Those are your words, but I am not falling into the trap of saying I'm sinless. To say that is a sin.

[John317]

If you are born again then why do you still sin, why are you still unrighteous,

Where do you believe the Bible teaches people who have been born again, or born from above, never commit sin?

In your view, was John the Beloved, or Peter, or any of the other followers of Christ, ever "born again"?

Quote:

why do you say that you can't keep the Commandment, why do you insist that you can't be obedient to the Covenant?

I can't speak for Richard, but I don't believe Paul teaches that no one can keep God's commandments. Through the power of the Spirit in our lives, God enables believers to obey the commandments and to remain loyal to God.

See how the Apostle John describes keeping the commandments in 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6. Does the Apostle say that when people keep the commandments, it means they are never sinning?

[Musicman1228]

I will give you my answers on all your questions when you answer mine re: Paul saying Jesus was declared the Son of God at the resurrection, when He was acknowledged by His Father as the Son of God at His baptism. This is the third time I have asked for your comments and the third time you have purposely evaded the issue.

[John317]

And what, no comment about what I pointed out about Jesus being acknowledged as the Son of God at His baptism by His Father, when Paul says He was 'declared' the Son of God at the resurrection? I am most interested in seeing how you parse this one.

Consider:

How many people heard the Father's acknowledgement of the Son of God at His baptism?

We know that God also acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God at the Mt. of transfiguration. But again how many were aware of it? Didn't Jesus at that point tell the few who heard it not to tell anyone about it?

And when were they told that they could tell people about it? After Jesus rose from the dead, right?

Is there a difference between being acknowledged as the Son of God and being "declared" to be the Son of God? If so, what's the difference?

[Guest]

First time I've seen the question.