How much of Scripture is inspired?

[Guest]

If you ever do really choose the merits of Christ, you will want to give up the sin. That's what it does for us. And that's how we know if we really have the grace of God, or the merits of Christ. It converts you. It does not leave you like you were.

Anything else and you're just fooling yourself. I played that game for years.

[Twilight]

There you go again thinking you can have both. It can't be done. When you choose to keep sinning, you choose to be under the control of Satan, not the merits of Christ.

Richard is correct, the blood of Christ is only there so that we can enter into the covenant relationship.

But that covenant relationship has conditions:

We are to be obedient through the grace of Christ.

If we fail in that by choosing to sin, we need to confess and repent and once again place ourselves under that covenant.

Sin breaks the conditions for the covenant.

Jesus said:

"Go and sin no more..."

I appreciate your honesty as to your condition Redwood, that you still struggle.

But sometimes it comes across that your are saying it is acceptable to sin.

Mark :-)

[John317]

I would also include another group John.

There are those that can be possessed by deceipt as well as sin.

Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yet they are also heavily under the influence of evil spirits masquerading as the Holy Spirit.

Many are not aware of this.

Consider the Corinthians.

They had the Holy Spirit, yet they were still carnal and led by demons.

Your thoughts?

Mark

The Holy Spirit was working on their minds and hearts but they weren't filled with the Spirit or led by Him. They weren't walking in the Spirit, but they were living according to the flesh. Paul says that to be carnally minded is death, and that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Rom. 8: 7-9.

[Woody]

Quote:

If we fail in that by choosing to sin, we need to confess and repent and once again place ourselves under that covenant.

Sin breaks the conditions for the covenant.

I reject your God who has that kind of covenant. I call it the yo-yo religion. I say NO to that God. I will not serve HIM. No way no thanks.

You are free to have that kind of religion. But it ain't for me. I was briefly exposed to that heresy some years ago. Almost got sucked into it. Our prophet warned us that this would be an issue in the end times. And it is being fulfilled right before our very eyes.

No way NO thanks. It is the anti-Scripture. The anti-God. The false God. The counterfeit.

I will accept the real Gospel.

I sin. I choose sin. I repent and accept His constant love and acceptance and His death in my place so that the curse of the law no longer applies to me. For I am In Him. Praise God He knows the hearts of men and it is by that of which we are judged.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would also include another group John.

There are those that can be possessed by deceipt as well as sin.

Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yet they are also heavily under the influence of evil spirits masquerading as the Holy Spirit.

Many are not aware of this.

Consider the Corinthians.

They had the Holy Spirit, yet they were still carnal and led by demons.

Your thoughts?

Mark

The Holy Spirit was working on their minds and hearts but they weren't filled with the Spirit or led by Him. They weren't walking in the Spirit, but they were living according to the flesh. Paul says that to be carnally minded is death, and that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Rom. 8: 7-9.

Consider this John317:

1Cr 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

Paul could not speak unto them as spiritual, but as onto carnal, but note above, even though they were "carnal" they were still "babes in Christ".

Later on in the same stream of thought we see:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

They had the "Spirit of God" "dwelling" in them.

This is the same group of people that were just told they were carnal, but babes in Christ.

So consider these three points:

1. They were yet carnal.

2. They were babes in Christ.

3. They had the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

So we see here, that a believer can have the Holy Spirit within them and still be led by the carnal mind, which is under the control of Satan.

Your thoughts?

[Musicman1228]

Mark said, "Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Are you sure it is the true Holy Spirit, or could it be the spirit of the deceiver masquerading as the Holy Spirit? How can you tell?

[Guest]

Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe that is the Holy Spirit that they have. Although it is a spirit. Those people scare me, I will not go to one of their services. I know of people who did, and brought home a demon. My dad was one of them. It's an enteresting story, maybe I'll tell it some time.

[John317]

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

They had the "Spirit of God" "dwelling" in them.

1 Cor. 3: 16 is saying that the Holy Spirit dwells in the body of Christ, the church. Notice Paul does not say, "Ye are temples..." He is speaking to them collectively as the church of God. (Compare 6: 16- 20 where Paul speaks of individual believers as indwelt by the Holy Spirit.)

Study also Romans 8: 5-14:

5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind controlled by the sinful nature is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The sinful mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but are in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

[Twilight]

Mark said, "Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Are you sure it is the true Holy Spirit, or could it be the spirit of the deceiver masquerading as the Holy Spirit? How can you tell?

Does not God give the Holy Spirit to all that claim the new covenant?

Is that not "justification"?

I have seen many SDA's that have received Christ, yet at times they are controlled by evil spirits and do not even realise it.

This was Peters problem, he did not know which spirit he was of.

Neither did John and James.

Why would it be any different today?

Where John and James following Jesus?

Had they accepted Jesus?

Yes...

But note:

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Now was Jesus saying that they were completely under the control of Satan?

Of course not.

He was saying they were being controlled at that point by Satan.

But they were still followers of Him.

Our pentecostal brothers who get misled by spirits into foolish behaviour, are no different from our Adventist liberals and conservatives, who on the one hand think they can sin with impunity and on the other think they can be saved by a list of rules and regulations.

Both of them are being led by the evil spirits.

Both think they are being led by the Holy Spirit.

So if we write off our pentecostal brothers, then we have to write ourselves off...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe that is the Holy Spirit that they have. Although it is a spirit. Those people scare me, I will not go to one of their services. I know of people who did, and brought home a demon. My dad was one of them. It's an enteresting story, maybe I'll tell it some time.

I have responded to MM's post which is along the same lines as yours Richard. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

They had the "Spirit of God" "dwelling" in them.

1 Cor. 3: 16 is saying that the Holy Spirit dwells in the body of Christ, the church. Notice Paul does not say, "Ye are temples..." He is speaking to them collectively as the church of God. (Compare 6: 16- 20 where Paul speaks of individual believers as indwelt by the Holy Spirit.)

Study also Romans 8: 5-14:

5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind controlled by the sinful nature is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The sinful mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but are in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

But does that argument really work John317?

Because collectively they are:

1. Spiritual babes.

2. Carnal in their behaviour.

3. Given the Holy Ghost.

I do not see at any point where Paul seperates the first two points from the second, or addresses these points to two different groups.

He addresses all three points to one group.

So to say it is a "group" announcement on one point would mean allowing for it to be a group announcement on all points.

Unless it can be proven that the first two points were not communicated at them as a collective...

That being the case the point still stands.

All three points are describing the same group.

Mark :-)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Mark said, "Consider our Pentecostal brothers.

They have received the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Are you sure it is the true Holy Spirit, or could it be the spirit of the deceiver masquerading as the Holy Spirit? How can you tell?

Does not God give the Holy Spirit to all that claim the new covenant?

Is that not "justification"?

I have seen many SDA's that have received Christ, yet at times they are controlled by evil spirits and do not even realise it.

This was Peters problem, he did not know which spirit he was of.

Neither did John and James.

Why would it be any different today?

Where John and James following Jesus?

Had they accepted Jesus?

Yes...

But note:

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Now was Jesus saying that they were completely under the control of Satan?

Of course not.

He was saying they were being controlled at that point by Satan.

But they were still followers of Him.

Our pentecostal brothers who get misled by spirits into foolish behaviour, are no different from our Adventist liberals and conservatives, who on the one hand think they can sin with impunity and on the other think they can be saved by a list of rules and regulations.

Both of them are being led by the evil spirits.

Both think they are being led by the Holy Spirit.

So if we write off our pentecostal brothers, then we have to write ourselves off...

Mark :-)

There is a big difference between being led and being possessed. A lot of possession goes on in those places.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Does not God give the Holy Spirit to all that claim the new covenant?

Is that not "justification"?

I have seen many SDA's that have received Christ, yet at times they are controlled by evil spirits and do not even realise it.

This was Peters problem, he did not know which spirit he was of.

Neither did John and James.

Why would it be any different today?

Where John and James following Jesus?

Had they accepted Jesus?

Yes...

But note:

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Now was Jesus saying that they were completely under the control of Satan?

Of course not.

He was saying they were being controlled at that point by Satan.

But they were still followers of Him.

Our pentecostal brothers who get misled by spirits into foolish behaviour, are no different from our Adventist liberals and conservatives, who on the one hand think they can sin with impunity and on the other think they can be saved by a list of rules and regulations.

Both of them are being led by the evil spirits.

Both think they are being led by the Holy Spirit.

So if we write off our pentecostal brothers, then we have to write ourselves off...

Mark :-) [/quote']

There is a big difference between being led and being possessed. A lot of possession goes on in those places.

But is not any time we submit to the control of the enemy a sign that we have submitted control to Satan.

I think if we don't try to soften the fact that we can be controlled by evil spirits our concern will be much higher.

Consider this:

1. Satan is tempting me.

2. Satan is controlling me.

3. Satan has taken control of me (possessed).

Which of these makes us really sit up and pay attention?

I think we have to be careful trying to classify the level of control satan has over us, unless we have scriptural reason to.

But I do not see that.

Whenever a mind is not fully under the control of God, it is under the control of satan.

If we can admit that in our own lives, we will start to take the subject much more seriously in my view.

Does that make sense?

Mark

[Guest]

A person can be lead and guided by Satan, thereby being under his control, without him taking possession of the body. Which is what demon possession is.

Mark 5:5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

Mark 5:8,9 For he had said unto him, Come out of the man, you unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is your name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

When you see a pentacostal fall down on the floor and start flopping around like a mackeral, that is possession.

[Twilight]

A person can be lead and guided by Satan, thereby being under his control, without him taking possession of the body. Which is what demon possession is.

Mark 5:5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

Mark 5:8,9 For he had said unto him, Come out of the man, you unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is your name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

When you see a pentacostal fall down on the floor and start flopping around like a mackeral, that is possession.

I have the book John317 suggested on order, so will look at that when it comes.

But at this point, I would like to see this point established from scripture.

It would be an interesting study I think...

Mark

[Musicman1228]

The Holy Spirit will work with anyone who will accept Her presence, but She will not dwell (live) in anyone that has a spirit other than Her own. 'Working with' someone is certainly different from 'dwelling in' someone. The Holy Spirit IS the 3rd person of the God head. The Holy Spirit is perfectly righteous, and while She will minister to the broken hearted, and comfort the afflicted, and guide, She cannot and will not be intimate with anyone that is less perfect than is God. Jesus said, "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." This statement is not a metaphor, it is a fact.

You must choose who will lead you and to what end. If you believe a lie, even though you believe it is the truth, then you are being led by a spirit other than the Spirit of God. If (as you put it) our Pentecostal 'brothers' believe a lie thinking that it is the truth then they are being led by the spirit of Satan. If this is the case then they are not 'brothers' of Jesus Christ, nor have they been 'born again' of the Spirit of Holiness. The only relatives that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit can have are those that qualify under the Law to be family. The 'Family' in Heaven IS perfect, so to must the family on earth be. This will be accomplished before the end, because God promised it:

"The glory of the Lord will fill the whole earth." Num. 14:21.

[Guest]

Here is an exchange between Dr. Rich and John317:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Gen 2:20 "...but for Adam, there was not found A HELPER..."

Gen 2:22 "And the Lord God fashioned into a WOMAN...."

So--here we see IN THE BIBLE the 'Woman' is associated with 'A Helper'. We see in John 16:7 that Jesus used this same word "the Helper" as the Holy Spirit.

John317 said:

Is this the closest you can come to showing the Holy Spirit is a woman?

You have a major problem here. You picked a verse, John 16: 7, in which Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a male, not a female. Both the noun and the personal pronoun are masculine, which would NOT be the case if Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit as feminine.

Remember that a "helper" can be either male or female, so the mere fact that a woman, Eve, was a helper does not mean that all helpers are female.

Another major problem for your argument is that the word in Gen. 2: 18, 20 in the Greek translation, the Septuagint, is "bohthos." By contrast, the word for "advocate" or "comforter" in John 16: 7 is paraklhtos.

[John317]

I have the book John317 suggested on order, so will look at that when it comes.

But at this point, I would like to see this point established from scripture.

If you or anyone else is interested, some of Pastor Vaughn Allen's other books on the subject are also available:

Victory On the Battlefield, Setting Captives Free: http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Battlefield-Setting-Captives-Free/dp/0945383525

The above book, published by TEACH SERVICES, was written for Seventh-day Adventists and contains most of the things that Ellen White, as well as the Bible, have to say on the topic of demon possession. 250 pages. His best and most comprehensive book on the topic.

You Can Be Free. 1996, Fourth Edition 2004. CHJ Publishing, PO Box 125 Middleton, Idaho 83644

Delivered From Demon Possession. Introduction by Roy Allen Anderson. Pacific Press Publishing Ass. 1981/ http://www.biblio.com/isbn/9780816303663.html

You Can Be More Than A Match For Satan. Published by American Cassette Ministries, 1983. /http://openlibrary.org/b/OL11401164M/You_can_be_more_than_a_match_for_Satan

[John317]

The Holy Spirit will work with anyone who will accept Her presence, but She will not dwell (live) in anyone that has a spirit other than Her own. 'Working with' someone is certainly different from 'dwelling in' someone. The Holy Spirit IS the 3rd person of the God head. The Holy Spirit is perfectly righteous, and while She will minister to the broken hearted, and comfort the afflicted, and guide, She cannot and will not be intimate with anyone that is less perfect than is God. Jesus said, "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." This statement is not a metaphor, it is a fact.

There's nothing in the Bible which leads us to believe the Holy Spirit is female or should be referred to as "she" or "her." The Bible refers to the Holy Spirit only as "it" and "he." The fact that He is sometimes referred to as "it" does not mean the Holy Spirit is impersonal, because the demons are also sometimes referred to as "it." Notice that in Luke 2: 28, the infant Jesus is referred to as "it" [Gk., auto, a neuter pronoun], although virtually all translations translate the neuter pronoun as "Him" because of context.

Never is the Spirit of God called "she" at any point in the Bible.

You are right that the Holy Spirit is perfectly righteous, and so is Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus said that the Holy Spirit and He would come to his followers and be "in" us. John 14: 16-23.

It's true, as you say, however, that the Holy Spirit will not dwell in those who are possessed or controlled by Satan. God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. Acts 5: 32.

God does not wait for people to be absolutely sinless before He gives them the wonderful gift of His Spirit. All He is waiting for is for people to truly want the Spirit. Jesus compared it to a son who asks his father for a piece of bread. What father would give his son a snake? Are we to suppose that God is any less anxious to give us His good and perfect gifts to His beloved children when they sincerely ask (and keep asking) Him? I don't think so. Jesus said, "How much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him." (Please study Luke 11: 9-13 and compare with John 15:7.)

Quote:

You must choose who will lead you and to what end. If you believe a lie, even though you believe it is the truth, then you are being led by a spirit other than the Spirit of God.

We're in agreement here.

[Kevin H]

This topic has become so long that I find it hard to follow, but some comments first on the last few posts:

While the Bible pictures God as having both male and female features, it seems to be spread through out the Godhead and not limited to one member of it. While language is my weak point, according to linguists while in our western translations God is except when they are absolutely unable to translate in this style, either male or nuter tense, that in the original Hebrew it is 50% male and 50% female tense. An early apect of what we can lead to the trinity is in mostly Proverbs God the Father and the female wisdom, which later developes into God the Father and God the son with Jesus becoming a male human. Also Greek scholars say that the term Jesus used Abba, is actually plural and a more accurate translation would be Fathers or what children use as a term of endearment (like the word "Daddy" or "Mommy") but simply means parent, a term that can be either mommy, daddy or mommy and daddy. Except for the little child term part, a more accurate English translation would be "Parent" instead of Father.

As for the argument that the Holy Spirit is female, here again the linguists say that the term for the Holy Spirit is in the sense of a male being.

So while we can find evidence for God having male and female features, we do not have the evidence that any particular member of the godhead is female. All three have female characteristics but all three are also put in very definte male terms.

I understand this to mean that God transsends maleness and femaleness and that the Bible is trying not to limit God or any member of the Godhead as just male or female as this is a step towards idolatry.

[Kevin H]

None of the Bible is inspired; but the writers of the Bible were all inspired and the Bible was one by product of their ministry.

[Kevin H]

We have to keep in mind: Once there was a decision by the General Conference in session; at this time the General conference consisted of Apostels, Prophets and Bible writers; how much more authority do you need? Surely they would give the wisest decision ever!

Well, what they decided was that Paul should go to the temple to offer sacrifices. This was probably the worst decision in church history.

[John317]

As for the argument that the Holy Spirit is female, here again the linguists say that the term for the Holy Spirit is in the sense of a male being.

So while we can find evidence for God having male and female features, we do not have the evidence that any particular member of the godhead is female. All three have female characteristics but all three are also put in very definte male terms.

I understand this to mean that God transsends maleness and femaleness and that the Bible is trying not to limit God or any member of the Godhead as just male or female as this is a step towards idolatry.

Excellent. I agree. I would only add that I think the reason it requires both the female and the male member of the human race to represent Mankind is that God made both in His image, which of necessity includes the characteristics of both sexes. The male by himself does not fully represent the image of God any more than the female alone does.

As I've thought about this topic a long time, I've come to believe that this is related to why homosexual relations are prohibited by God-- because male-on-male or female-on- female does not conform to God's plan, but it damages God's image in humanity. Satan is out to attack God's image and His character, and I believe one way He does that is through homosexuality, Satan's counterfeit love.

[John317]

Well, what they decided was that Paul should go to the temple to offer sacrifices. This was probably the worst decision in church history.

Yes, for sure. Ellen White writes that it was not right for James to tell Paul to go to the temple, and Paul shouldn't have gone there for that purpose. One lesson from this, I think, is that even the Bible writers did not always do or say the right thing when not under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit. Peter is another example of that. It's important to notice that the book of Acts does not attempt to hide these things.

[John317]

None of the Bible is inspired; but the writers of the Bible were all inspired and the Bible was one by product of their ministry.

I know what you mean, but your statement may be liable to being misunderstood by some.

Let's look again at 2 Tim. 3: 16--

Whether we translate it as "Every Scripture is inspired by God," or "Every Scripture inspired by God is also....", we see that it says Scripture was/is "inspired."

Some call it "the inspired word of God." The words "Inspired by God," of course, mean, literally, "God-breathed." It might also be translated as "inspirated," or "breathed out by God."

While it doesn't mean that the Bible was dictated by God, it does mean that the words are the way they are because of the influence of God. We have to be able to trust the individual words and not merely the general significance. For instance, if we say that the words are not inspired but are the words chosen by a fallible human and therefore may be mistaken, we have trouble with verses such as John 8: 58 and Gal. 3: 16. Both verses depend on the accuracy of a particular word and even on its number and tense. There are actually quite a few places in the Bible where the change of a single letter in the original language would change the meaning of the word and hence the meaning of the verse. Therefore, it is necessary to believe that God inspired those very words. If not, the statements found in those Scriptures are without certainty.

When tempted by Satan, it's significant that Jesus quoted Scripture (Deut. 8: 3), "Man shall... live... by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Matt. 4: 4). (Compare closely 1 Peter 1: 10, 11, 23, 25; 2 Peter 1: 20, 21.)

David said, "God's word was on my tongue..." (2 Sam. 23: 2).

What did Moses, David and Jesus mean?

Acts 1: 16 says that "the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David." The same is said in Acts 4: 24-25. It quotes the Psalms but it says God is the One who really spoke those words. How literally should we take that?