How much of Scripture is inspired?

[Guest]

Yeah ok....

[Guest]

No it's not demeaning, it's unscriptural. Jesus referred the HS as he.

[Guest]

In John 16:7, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a male, not a female. Both the noun and the personal pronoun are masculine, which would NOT be the case if Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit as feminine.

I learned this from a greek scholar.

[wayfinder]

Genesis 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Strong's Number: 7307

Original Word Word Origin

xwr from (07306)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Ruwach TWOT - 2131a

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

roo'-akh Noun Feminine

John 16:13 "But when (He, She), the Spirit of truth, comes, (He, She), will guide you into all the truth ; for (He, She), will not speak on (His, Her), own initiative, but whatever (He, She), hears, (He, She) will speak ; and (He, She) will disclose to you what is to come.

Strong's Number: 4151

Original Word Word Origin

pneu'ma from (4154)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Pneuma 6:332,876

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

pnyoo'-mah Noun Neuter

Strong's Number: 1565

Original Word Word Origin

ekeinoß from (1563)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Ekeinos None

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ek-i'-nos

Definition

he, she it, etc.

Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Exodus 38:8 NAS

Moreover, he made the laver of bronze with its base of bronze, from the mirrors of the serving women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting.

Christ's work of atonement is represented by the bronze altar. The Holy Spirit's work of atonement is represented by the bronze laver. The bronze for the laver came from the mirrors of the serving (holy) women. Why their mirrors, because their mirrors reflect a femine image. The Holy Spirit is the femine member of the family of God and gives birth to the children of God.

[Guest]

As usual you just ignore my evidence and carry on as if I hadn't shown you anything.

The Holy Spirit is not a woman. Women are humans, and the Holy Spirit is not human. The Bible NEVER refers to either the Father or the Spirit as "her" or "she," but always as "He," "Him," or, in the case of the Spirit, sometimes as "it."

[wayfinder]

The last time I checked, men are human too, or do you know something no one else knows.

[Guest]

Your point is..............

[wayfinder]

My point is this, if you are basing your understanding of the Holy Spirit and Her charicteristics on tradition rather than truth and that women are human therefore the Holy Spirit cannot be feminine because women are feminine and human, then you are implying the She must be masculine because men are masculine and not human.

Genesis 1:26,27 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God said let us make mankind in Our own image... and male and female made He them. The only explaination would be that one member of the family of God has a femine image and likeness.

[John317]

Is it demeaning for the Holy Spirit to be a woman or is being a woman somehow sinful in and of itself?

It's not a question of whether it's sinful for the Holy Spirit to be woman. It's rather a question of using the language of inspired Scripture to refer to the Holy Spirit. If we do that, we will never refer to the Holy Spirit as "she" or "her" since the Scripture never does. It (or He) is always referred to as "it" or "him." On occasion, even Christ Himself is referred to as "it." So the use of a neuter pronoun does not necessarily signify that the subject lacks personality or gender.

[wayfinder]

I understand that the use of a neuter pronoun does not lack gender, in fact that is what I am saying. The noun for spirit in Hebrew always is femine in gender. Pneuma, the Greek word for air, breath, spirit, is gender neutral, this does not make the Spirt of God masculine though. The translators are the ones who supplied the He and His. As I explained earlier, the pronoun Ekeinos can be used as he, she, it, etc. The translators choose which gender specific pronoun to use. It stands to reason that the translators were convinced that God is masculine in all three representations (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). I believe that the weight of evidence would be on the side that the Holy Spirit is the femine/mother member of the family of God. The family of God (God is the family or surname) has a Father, Mother, and Son and sons and daughters, which are the last of the Woman's offspring (Revelation 12:17).

[Musicman1228]

One of your students wayfinder, or is that your alter ego?

Hmmmmmm............

No one is a good as you, Richard, at least according to you. You follow Michael around like a puppy because you can't define your thoughts as he can his, so you tag along claiming to know what he is talking about when in fact you don't have a clue. You complain about me and my friends (whoever shadow is), but you refuse to look to your own willful ignorance. I AM NOT a student of wayfinder. I am a friend and colleague. When you try to insult us all you do is prove your own ineptitude and desperation. At least Michael does not do that. Your insults result not in your gaining superiority over anyone but it proves your inferiority of thought and logical process. When Michael criticizes it is not out of a sense of trying to be better than us, but he is really trying to express his thoughts in a way we can understand. This is also what I am trying to do. All I have seen from you lately is when you can't answer a question you resort to insult an innuendo, this is unbecoming of a "caring Christian". I do care about you, Richard, and want the best for you in information and in life. I hope you want the same for me.

[Guest]

What brought all that on?

Get control of yourself man. It dosn't make you look good when you try to lash out like that. It puts me in mind of a school girl. If you're through psycho analyzing me and trying to hurt my feelings, I can tell you there was very little truth in what you said. (shocker)

The reason Michael or I or anybody critisizes you is because you're wrong, plain and simple. Glaringly so. And yet you have an air of arrogance that is unsurpassed. Wayfinder dosn't come off like that. Sure, I know he's the mac daddy of all this error, but he dosn't act like he's the only one that knows anything, like you do.

I've took time to show you plenty of things, but you either don't even really look at it, or you gloss over it like I hadn't said anything. That combined with your pompous arrogance gets old.

So you can take your flustered little self somewhere else besides my thread to vent. When I started this thread I did not have you in mind. I didn't say a word to you, and didn't invite you to come here. You are the one who decided you needed to critisize what I was posting.

What I'm posting here has nothing to do with you, since you don't believe the whole Bible. That is your problem not mine, so don't try to make it mine. This thread is for those who do believe the Bible.

So if you don't say another word here, that will suit me just fine.

[Dr. Rich]

John, didn't you give the exact information in another thread some time ago? And didn't I write that it makes not difference what you believe?

Regardless of what you provide for your reply, I will stick with the words of Jesus--thanks anyway.

[John317]

I understand that the use of a neuter pronoun does not lack gender, in fact that is what I am saying. The noun for spirit in Hebrew always is femine in gender.

Yes, and it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is female, any more it means the wind or breath, etc., is female.

Quote:

Pneuma, the Greek word for air, breath, spirit, is gender neutral, this does not make the Spirt of God masculine though.

But remember that Jesus used a masculine pronoun with it (John 16: 7: auton), which Christ wouldn't have done if He didn't mean for us to understand the Holy Spirit as "He" and "Him."

auton is always only a masculine pronoun, NEVER feminine.

The feminine masculine pronoun has a different form: authn.

Notice that Christ never used a feminine pronoun in reference to the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

The translators are the ones who supplied the He and His. As I explained earlier, the pronoun Ekeinos can be used as he, she, it, etc.

If you knew Greek, you would know that Ekeinos is always the masculine form. It is demonstrative pronoun singular nominative masculine.

IF JOHN MEANT TO WRITE THE FEMININE PRONOUN, HE WOULD HAVE WRITTEN EKEINH.

Check out John 20: 15, 16-- "SHE [ekeinh] said...." "She [ekeinh] turned...."

There is not a single instance in the entire Bible-- Old or New-- where ekeinos means "she". If you believe there is, then please give the text and the translation.

What you need to do is get a good basic grammar and study the paradigms for the demonstrative pronouns. Greek is highly reflective, which means that the form of the word-- i.e., spelling-- changes according to its function in the sentence. There's nominative, genitive/ablative, Dative, and accusative, and these in turn are divided into masculine, feminine and neuter. All the words are spelled differently according to their function in the sentence. Greek doesn't go as much by word order as by the spelling of the word-- prefixes, suffixes, etc. In many Greek sentences, you could put the words in any order and the sentence would still mean the same. Of course in English you can't do that.

Here's the singular demonstrative pronoun:

ekeinos= he or that man (nominative masculine; or subject of the sentence)

ekeinh= she or that woman (nominative feminine; or subject of the sentence)

ekeino= it or that thing (nominative neuter; or subject of the sentence, etc.)

Plurals have a different form:

For instance:

ekeinoi= Masculine

ekeinai= feminine

ekeiva= neuter

Et Cetera

[Guest]

Amen.....

[John317]

Strong's Number: 1565

Original Word Word Origin

ekeinoß from (1563)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Ekeinos None

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ek-i'-nos

Definition

he, she it, etc.

Your use of the Strong's Concordance shows that you do not understand what it's telling you. The concordance gives you the masculine form, ekeinos. It is not telling you that the masculine form, ekeinos, is translated as "she" or "it," but that feminine and neuter forms of the word mean "she" and "it."

When it means "she" or "it," the word is spelled slightly differently. But unless you've studied some Greek, you won't know this.

For instance, as explained on the previous post:

ekeinos= he or that man (nominative masculine singular; or subject of the sentence)

ekeinh= she or that woman (nominative feminine singular; or subject of the sentence)

ekeino= it or that thing (nominative neuter singular ; or subject of the sentence, etc.)

Get a good, standard Greek grammar and study the paradigms. They are usually at the end of the book.

[wayfinder]

Please consider the following study as part of the supporting evidence that the Holy Spirit is feminine.

SUPPORTING EVIDENCE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS FEMININE

If any of you lack wisdom [sophia], let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

- James 1:5

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

- Luke 11:13

Perhaps the first argument which can be offered in support of the feminine gender of the Holy Spirit is Her association with "the spirit of wisdom"(Exodus 28:3; Ephesians 1:17). In both the Old and New Testaments, Wisdom is often personified in the feminine gender:

"Say that Wisdom is thy sister" (Proverbs 7:4)

"Wisdom has built a house for herself, and set up seven pillars" (Proverbs 9:1)

Proverbs chapters 8 and 9 are in fact an extended allegory of Wisdom depicted as a woman.

"Wisdom is known by her children" (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:35)

"Therefore also said the Wisdom of God, I will also send them prophets and apostles . . ." (Luke 11:49). In this text our Lord is equating the "Wisdom of God" with the Holy Spirit who provided Divine inspiration to those who wrote the Scriptures (2 Peter 1:21). He refers to Wisdom in the feminine gender.

The Old Testament word for "wisdom" is chokmah which has the feminine ending.

The New Testament word - in the Greek - is sophia - also feminine. In fact "Sophia" is the name for a goddess of wisdom in the Greek pantheon. It should be obvious that the Early Church, when reading the Greek Septuagint - the translation of the Old Testament for the Greek-speaking Jew - would have made the connection between that goddess and the Holy Spirit. Of course, a Gentile Christian would have known that the Holy Spirit was not a Greek goddess. Rather, he would have confessed that the Holy Spirit was the true Sophia in contrast to the pagan imitation.

The connection between the Holy Spirit and Sophia is more pronounced in the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha are writings from the Intertestamental Period which was contained in the Septuagint but are not included in our modern Bibles. (They are regarded as deutero-canonical by the Anglican Church).

For Sophia is a loving spirit. . . For the Spirit of the Lord filleth the world.

- Wisdom of Solomon 1:5,7

For Sophia, which is the worker of all things, taught me: for in her is an understanding spirit, holy, one only. . . For she is the breath of the power of God, and a pure influence flowing from the glory of the Almighty . . . And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with Sophia.

- Wisdom chapter 7 (excerpts)

And thy counsel who hath known, except thou give Sophia, and send thy Holy Spirit from above?

- 9:7

In the writings of the Early Church, Wisdom (Sophia) is preserved as feminine (e.g. the Shepherd of Hermes)

Jesus associates the "spirit of truth" with the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). Sophia and the Holy Spirit share identical roles (1 Corinthians 2:7-11; Romans 5:5; 1 John 5:6-7 KJV). Were it not for the masculine bias of later theologians, the Church would likely have acknowledged the allegorical associations in the Old Testament as literal theophanies of the Holy Spirit.

The second argument which can be offered in support for the feminine gender of the Holy Spirit is found in the very names ascribed to God and the Holy Spirit. The name for God in the Hebrew language is "Elohim". Most scholars acknowledge that this word has a plural ending, which some use to suggest an Old Testament anticipation of the Trinity. What most scholars either do not know or care not to inform their constituents is that "Elohim" is not the plural of "El" the masculine form of the name. It is plural of the feminine, "Elowah". Strictly speaking, we can translate the Old Testament name for God as "goddesses".

Such a fact is naturally shocking to traditionalists who are largely ignorant of the origins of their faith. We do not favor, however, a translation of the name for God into the feminine because masculine pronouns are used in association with "Elohim". But we do argue that the use of the feminine ending by Divine Revelation ought to settle unequivocally that God's being encompasses both the masculine and feminine genders. Indeed, when describing man as made in God's image, the Scriptures say,

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

- Genesis 1:27

Thus indicating that both genders exist in the Godhead.

That the Holy Spirit is the designated representation of the feminine principle is further supported by the Hebrew word for "spirit". I quote now Jerome, the author of the Latin Vulgate:

In the Gospel of the Hebrews that the Nazarenes read it says, "Just now my mother, the Holy Spirit, took me." Now no one should be offended by this, because "spirit" in Hebrew is feminine, while in our language [Latin] it is masculine and in Greek it is neuter. In divinity, however, there is no gender.

- Jerome's Commentary on Isaiah 11

This explanation contains an astonishing admission. First, it tells us that there was a tradition among a sect of Early Christians which believed that the Holy Spirit was our Lord's spiritual mother. Second, Jerome - a more orthodox figure cannot be imagined - admits that the Hebrew word for "spirit" (ruach) is feminine, meaning that for the 1st Century Christians - who were largely operating in the Aramaic world (Paul's churches were tiny in comparison) - the Holy Spirit was a feminine figure. It was lost in the translation from the Hebrew into the Greek, and then it was changed to a masculine gender when it was translated from the Greek into the Latin.

Finally, Jerome's theological bias leads him to believe the distinction of gender is unimportant. He believes there is no gender in God, therefore, it does not matter whether God is referred to as a "he" or a "she" or an "it", presumably. With many centuries of misogynist behavior by Christian leaders behind us, I think it does matter. We are not allowed to change one "jot or tittle" of the Law, and if God is represented as a being encompassing both the masculine and feminine genders, then we are foolish to hide that fact in our translations of the Sacred Text.

The third argument which can be offered is the example of early Christian leaders in how they handled this doctrine. In his Homily on Jeremiah 15, the learned Origen argued the case that the Holy Spirit was Christ's mother. In a more practical application, Methodius - also a leader with an impeccably orthodox reputation - states directly that the family is meant to reflect analogously the blessed Trinity:

[T]he innocent and unbegotten Adam being the type and resemblance of God the Father Almighty, who is uncaused, and the cause of all; his begotten son [seth] shadowing forth the image of the begotten Son and Word of God; whilst Eve, that proceedeth forth from Adam, signifies the person and procession of the Holy Spirit.

- Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 6, p. 402

The Didascalia, a 3rd Century clergy manual, commanded the churches that, "the deaconess should be honored by you as the Holy Spirit is honored". Thus, officially confirming that the role of the Holy Spirit is of a feminine nature.

It should be emphasized that we are not saying that the Holy Spirit is a woman. Neither is God the Father a man. We are made in God's image. God is not made in our image. We must maintain a theistic perspective, rather than a humanistic one. The Holy Spirit is not married to the Father, nor is She His wife in any human sense of the word. Rather, marriage is a creaturely reflection of the glorious unity which exists within the Trinity. As long as we remain loyal to the Ecumenical Creeds, we will not go astray with this doctrine.

In conclusion, we affirm that it is not impious, nor does it in any way diminish the deity of the 3rd Person, to address the Holy Spirit as a "She" rather than as a "He". While we do not favor the call for a gender neutral Bible, we do believe that a new translation of the Scriptures is in order - under the supervision of the Desposyni - which will correct the Latin biases which have been carried over from the Vulgate.

[Guest]

Do you have any proof from the Bible that the HS is feminine? I don't read Jerome, or the Didascalia, or anything else that's not in the Bible. Not for the purpose of forming doctrine or beliefs anyway.

It's funny how you will take from sources outside the Bible, and use them for doctrine, but won't believe the sources that are in the Bible. Such as Paul, Luke, James, etc. etc.

I noticed you quoted a text from Luke. I find that strange since you have made it plain that you don't believe Luke, and think he is inspired by Satan, just like Paul.

Is it ok to quote the devil if it serves your purpose?

If nothing else, you should at least be consistant.

[wayfinder]

Richard: Happy Thanksgiving my friend.

It is true that I do not hold to the testimony of Paul, James and Luke as authoritive truth, I offer them only because most christians accept them as authoritative. I do not need them to support my understanding.

As far as the feminine member of the family of God, the Holy Spirit, the evidence is all through the scriptures. The word used for God (plural) in the Old Testement is Elohim the ending (ohim) is the feminine of El the word for God Almighty. The word for the Glory of God the Shekhinah, is a feminine noun in the Hebrew language. The word for wisdom in Hebrew is a feminine noun, as it is in Greek (sophia). The Lord God with Wisdom created the heavens and the earth. The woman of Revelation 12 is seen by John in the heavens. She gives birth to the Son of God and at the end of time, She gives birth to the last of Her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ. She was preceeded the birth of the Son of Man and is present and gives birth to His brothers and sisters. When Jesus tells Nicodemus except a man be born of the water and the Spirit... He is referring to this same Woman.

Proverbs 8:17 "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. 18 "Riches and honor are with me, Enduring wealth and righteousness. 19 "My fruit is better than gold, even pure gold, And my yield better than choicest silver. 20 "I walk in the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice, 21 To endow those who love me with wealth, That I may fill their treasuries.

Proverbs 14:8 NAS

The wisdom of the sensible is to understand his way, But the foolishness of fools is deceit.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

Strong's Number: 1565

Original Word Word Origin

ekeinoß from (1563)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Ekeinos None

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ek-i'-nos

Definition

he, she it, etc.

Your use of the Strong's Concordance shows that you do not understand what it's telling you. The concordance gives you the masculine form, ekeinos. It is not telling you that the masculine form, ekeinos, is translated as "she" or "it," but that feminine and neuter forms of the word mean "she" and "it."

When it means "she" or "it," the word is spelled slightly differently. But unless you've studied some Greek, you won't know this.

For instance, as explained on the previous post:

ekeinos= he or that man (nominative masculine singular; or subject of the sentence)

ekeinh= she or that woman (nominative feminine singular; or subject of the sentence)

ekeino= it or that thing (nominative neuter singular ; or subject of the sentence, etc.)

Get a good, standard Greek grammar and study the paradigms. They are usually at the end of the book.

Happy Thanksgiving wayf, You should pay more attention to what John is trying to show you. He knows what he is talking about.

[wayfinder]

I read John317 response and I appreciate that fact that he has studied and researched and understands much more than most. While it is true what he posted about the Greek words for masculine and feminine Greek pronouns, the fact remains that the original Greek of the gospel of John was translated into Latin in the Vulgate. The male Greek pronoun was added at the time of translating into Latin, there are no original Greek manuscripts of John's gospel. You may then say, something about God's protection of the gospel writers words as they recorded His Son's words, and rightly so. The truth that the Son of God testified to is the content of the eyewitness testimony, the use of feminine or masculine pronouns must be tested and compared with reliable sources to crosscheck the information. The Woman of Revelation is most definately the Holy Spirit, which those who are the children of God and members of His kingdom have been bornagain through. The other evidence is the Hebrew words for spirit are all feminine gender. The laver is also a representation of the cleasning of the Holy Spirit. It is a feminine symbol (bowl or basin) and it was made from the bronze mirrors of the women who fasted and prayed at the entrance to the tent of meeting during the construction of the wilderness sanctuary. The bronze mirrors of women give a feminine reflection. Also when Elohim said, let us make mankind in Our image and after Our likeness... male and female made He them, God must have a male as well as a female (feminine) image.

[Guest]

I may not know much, but I do know that the woman of Revelation is definately not the Holy Spirit.

[Musicman1228]

I may not know much, but I do know that the woman of Revelation is definately not the Holy Spirit.

And in saying that, Richard, you prove your own point; you don't really know much about this and must rely on tradition not fact for your belief. I have found that no amount of facts can ever overcome a persons diametrically opposed faith.

Wayfinder has more than proven the point and yet because of your hold on tradition, and it's hold on you, you cannot see the truth in this. Are you such a misogynist that you cannot accept a part of the God head that is feminine?

[Guest]

That's where you're wrong as usual. One dosn't need to know much to see that your far fetched theories are riddled with error. You are following the theories of a man and not the Holy Spirit.

A first year Bible student with an honest heart who prays for guidence and is willing to do God's will, would not follow the path you are on.

First of all they would not be lead to dispence with parts of the Bible. Nor would they grab on to your conjecture, speculation, and downright arrogance, at thinking you are wise above all others including Bible writers, and in thinking you are the only ones with light, and you will be the ones to show it to the rest of the world, or at least the 144,000.

Your arrogance and self deception really knows no bounds.

[Guest]

Also they would quickly pick up on the fact that you claim to be SDA when you are nothing of the sort.