How much of Scripture is inspired?

[Guest]

I know I've said this more than once before, but you have to ignore it because you have no answer that makes any sense.

Why would the HS need to be hidden in the wilderness for fear of being harmed by Satan? Why would the HS need to be fed and protected?

Answer: It wouldn't. The HS has no fear of Satan, and does not need to be protected, or fed.

That alone pokes a huge hole in your theory, and there are plenty more. These theories are simply not biblical.

Also you may want to look one page back and see my reply to your last post on this thread.

[Musicman1228]

Your accusations about me not being an SDA are merely your attempt to misdirect the conversation, again. Your opinion of who and what I am mean nothing, yet you continue to insist on inflicting them on us. You have proved NOTHING, and when given solid proofs you choose to look the other way. You choose to be willingly ignorant because that is more convenient than having to think for yourself.

The HS was hidden in the 'wilderness' because there was no Kingdom of Heaven at that time wherein the HS could operate. Satan is going after the 'rest of her offspring' (Rev.12:17), which are PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS that 'keep the Commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus'. Satan can't get to the HS because she is a sign that appears IN HEAVEN, so he goes after those in whom she resides and with whom she operates because they live ON THE EARTH. It is the truth of the Kingdom that is protected and fed BY the HS when it would appear that there are only lies left on earth. During Elijah's time God told him that He reserved 7000 out of Israel that still honored the name of God. These 7000 still had the truth. It is that truth that identifies the 'remnant' at the end of time.

[Guest]

Quote:

The HS was hidden

Wrong. The HS has never hidden, or needed to hide. Hide from what? That dosn't even make sense. Nor has it ever been hidden from God's people.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Quote:

because there was no Kingdom of Heaven at that time wherein the HS could operate.

Wrong again. God has always had people on this earth willing to follow him, and the HS has always been with them. There has never been a time when this wasn't so, even in the dark ages. You want to call the KOH the church, fine. Those people were God's church, which is what the Pure woman in Bible prophecy really stands for.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her;

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a lovely and delicate woman.

This is what's known as letting the Bible interpret itself, instead of trying to twist it and make it conform to your ideas, which seems to be the method you are accustomed to.

The church/woman really did need to be hidden during that time. This is biblical, and it makes perfect sense. One of the legitimate rules of Bible prophecy is that it needs to make sense. You guys failed to include this one when you were making up that set of rules that you use for yourselves.

Quote:

Satan is going after the 'rest of her offspring' (Rev.12:17), which are PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS that 'keep the Commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus'.

You're right that they are people. They are the REMNANT, which is the last part of something. The remnant is the last part which is exactly like the first part. Websters dictionary can clear this up for you if you doubt me.

Lets look at the word REMNANT - Strongs # G3062

loipoi

loy-poy'

Masculine plural of a derivative of G3007; remaining ones: - other, which remain, remnant, residue, rest.

God's people, or church in the beginning kept the commandments of God and had the testimony of Jesus. Because the testimony of Jesus is actually the Spirit of Prophecy, and they had it.

Rev 19:10............for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God's church in the end will also have it. Scripture declares this and you have to except it. Because unless you are going to throw out the book of Revelation like you have so many other books, there is no way around it.

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Satan can't get to the HS

Why would Satan even want to get to the Holy Spirit?

What good would it do him?

Do you think that Satan is more powerful than the Holy Spirit?

Again your reasoning makes no sense at all.

Quote:

because she is a sign that appears IN HEAVEN, so he goes after those in whom she resides and with whom she operates because they live ON THE EARTH.

Here you are contradicting yourself as to where the Holy Spirit is. First you say Satan can't get to the HS because the HS is a sign that appears in Heaven, then in the same sentence you say the Holy Spirit resides and operates with the people here on earth. .....Which one is it?........ It can't be both.......

Quote:

It is the truth of the Kingdom that is protected and fed BY the HS when it would appear that there are only lies left on earth.

Wait a minute. According to your reasoning that the woman of Revelation is the Spirit, it is the Spirit that needs to be protected and fed, and hidden. That is how the text reads. Here you have your own reasoning turned around backwards.

Rev 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.

Now you have the Holy Spirit doing the protecting and the feeding.

Can you not see that? Can you not see why prophecy needs to make sense? You can't just twist it one way, and then back the other way to make it fit your ideas.

The Holy Spirit had no need to flee, no need to have a place prepared by God, and no need to be fed for 1260 days. God's people, or the Church on the other hand, had to do exactly that, or they would have been completely wiped out.

Persecution opened upon God's people with greater fury than ever before, and the world became a battlefield. For hundreds of years the church of Christ found refuge in seclusion and obscurity.

This makes sense. The fact that John saw a sign in Heaven, and the woman/church clothed with the sun, does not mean that the church was literally in heaven.

Just like when he saw another sign in Heaven (12:3)

a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

What a monster to be in heaven! The seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his head are kingdoms, nations and powers here on earth.

It is late here now. Not only in the timeline of prophecy, but here in North Carolina. I must get some sleep. I will have more to say tomorrow.

[Guest]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:17 AndG2532 theG3588 dragonG1404 was wrothG3710 withG1909 theG3588 woman,G1135 andG2532 wentG565 to makeG4160 warG4171 withG3326 theG3588 remnantG3062 of herG848 seed,G4690 which keepG5083 theG3588 commandmentsG1785 of God,G2316 andG2532 haveG2192 theG3588 testimonyG3141 of JesusG2424 Christ.G5547

[John317]

While it is true what he posted about the Greek words for masculine and feminine Greek pronouns, the fact remains that the original Greek of the gospel of John was translated into Latin in the Vulgate.

How does translating from Greek to Latin change the Greek?

If I translate Hemingway's "The Old Man and the Sea," into Spanish, how does that change the English?

The Greek of the gospel of John has been translated into hundreds of languages. Does that change the Greek? If you believe it does, please explain and give a specific example.

Quote:

The male Greek pronoun was added at the time of translating into Latin, there are no original Greek manuscripts of John's gospel.

The masculine Greek pronouns autou & ekeinos were not added but occur in all the ancient Greek manuscripts of John's Gospel, including the very oldest.

Please show the evidence for your statement that the Greek pronoun was added at the time it was translated into Latin.

Can you show any textual evidence that it ever read any other way than the way all the ancient Greek manuscripts read in those verses?

[Guest]

Good point John.

[John317]

The other evidence is the Hebrew words for spirit are all feminine gender.

It's already been shown that the fact that a word is feminine in Hebrew does not mean that the subject itself is female. A "dry land" or "desert" is also feminine in Hebrew but it has nothing to do with gender or sex. Hundreds of other examples could be given.

Even more important is whether the Bible says directly that the Holy Spirit is female or whether the OT or the NT refers to the Holy Spirit as "she" or "her."

The Bible never calls the Holy Spirit a female and it always refers to the Holy Spirit as "he," "him," or "it."

[John317]

Are you such a misogynist that you cannot accept a part of the God head that is feminine?

This argument is similar to the one that a person must be homophobic if he believes the Bible condemns homosexuality.

The fact that it's an invalid argument is demonstrated by the many millions of women who believe the Holy Spirit is not feminine.

[John317]

In his Homily on Jeremiah 15, the learned Origen argued the case that the Holy Spirit was Christ's mother. In a more practical application, Methodius - also a leader with an impeccably orthodox reputation - states directly that the family is meant to reflect analogously the blessed Trinity:

Origen is not anyone I would take as my example or point to as an authority on doctrine. He was a heretic and a gnostic and brought many false teachings and beliefs into the Christian church.

Here's a list of some of his false beliefs:

He believed the Holy Spirit was a feminine force.

He believed that Jesus was only a created being and Gnosticism taught that Jesus became Christ at his baptism but that he was never God. He was a just a good man with very high morals.

He believed in the doctrine of Purgatory

He believed in transubstantiation

He believed in the transmigration of the soul and reincarnation of the soul.

He doubted the temptations of Jesus in Scripture and claimed they could have never happened.

The Scriptures were not literal. He was the father of allegory.

Genesis 1-3 was a myth, not historical or literal, as there was no actual person named "Adam."

Based upon Matthew 19, a true man of God should be castrated, which he did to himself.

He taught eternal life was not a gift, instead one must grab hold of it and retain it.

Christ enters no man until they mentally grasp the understanding of the consummation of the ages.

He taught there would be no physical resurrection of the believers.

Origen's belief system clearly indicates that he was a Gnostic Greek Philosopher.

[Guest]

Wow!! It looks like wayfinder and crew got some of their beliefs directly from this heretic. I see three of them right off the bat:

1.He believed the Holy Spirit was a feminine force.

2.He taught eternal life was not a gift, instead one must grab hold of it and retain it.

3.Christ enters no man until they mentally grasp the understanding of .........

But they call it Adventism.

[John317]

Please consider the following study as part of the supporting evidence that the Holy Spirit is feminine.

SUPPORTING EVIDENCE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS FEMININE

.......

In conclusion, we affirm that it is not impious, nor does it in any way diminish the deity of the 3rd Person, to address the Holy Spirit as a "She" rather than as a "He". While we do not favor the call for a gender neutral Bible, we do believe that a new translation of the Scriptures is in order - under the supervision of the Desposyni - which will correct the Latin biases which have been carried over from the Vulgate.

Could you post the website where you got these arguments?

[John317]

- Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 6, p. 402

The Didascalia, a 3rd Century clergy manual, commanded the churches that, "the deaconess should be honored by you as the Holy Spirit is honored". Thus, officially confirming that the role of the Holy Spirit is of a feminine nature.

The early Christian practices and doctrines outside the NT cannot be considered authoritative or "normative" for us-- but only of historical interest-- because they believed and practiced many errors and heresies.

Did the church "Fathers" ever refer to the Holy Spirit as "she" or "her"?

[John317]

The connection between the Holy Spirit and Sophia is more pronounced in the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha are writings from the Intertestamental Period which was contained in the Septuagint but are not included in our modern Bibles. (They are regarded as deutero-canonical by the Anglican Church).

For Sophia is a loving spirit. . . For the Spirit of the Lord filleth the world.

- Wisdom of Solomon 1:5,7

For Sophia, which is the worker of all things, taught me: for in her is an understanding spirit, holy, one only. . . For she is the breath of the power of God, and a pure influence flowing from the glory of the Almighty . . . And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with Sophia.

- Wisdom chapter 7 (excerpts)

And thy counsel who hath known, except thou give Sophia, and send thy Holy Spirit from above?

- 9:7

In the writings of the Early Church, Wisdom (Sophia) is preserved as feminine (e.g. the Shepherd of Hermes)

The above writings are only interesting for historical reasons but have no authority or influence on doctrine. Through these writings, the devil was able to introduce the doctrines concerning prayers for the dead, etc. None of them were recognized as canonical by the Hebrews and none of them are quoted by Jesus or the writers of the NT.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Didn't Jude quote from the Book of Enoch?

(1 Enoch 1:9 (Jude 14-15)

[Kevin H]

Limiting God to either feminine or masculine is already a first step towards idoletry. Male and Female is the immage of God. While language is my weak point, according to what I"ve come across from those who have studied the language, while in western translations God is translated in either masculine or nuter (except for a few verses where it can not get away from the female immagry) however in the Hebrew the word and discriptions of God is 50% male and 50% female tense.

The arugumet for the Sophia which was brought up falls short as the aspect of the Godhead that these text apply to would be the personal aspect of God, a second objective member of the trinity, or who later came to earth as the male, God the Son.

In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is always in the tense of an actual MALE person.

Of course the Old Testament feels that limiting God to Male or Female was the first step towards idolitry as God is infinite and transends gender, and the idea to make one aspect of God all male and another aspect all female, really ruffeled the feathers of the prophets.

All three members of the trinity have male and female aspects, and all three have appeared in very masculin forms, God the Father, God the Son, and in the Greek, God an actual male being the Spirit. Let's not go farther than the Bible. Because of our culture and understanding the members of the trinity have chosen to enter or minds in masculine forms, but that we need to keep in mind that God also transends gender.

[John317]

Didn't Jude quote from the Book of Enoch?

(1 Enoch 1:9 (Jude 14-15)

We can't be sure whether Jude quoted from the writings we have today or whether the Book of Enoch and Jude quoted from a common source which is no longer available. However, it could very well be that Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch.

Paul also quoted from ancient pagan poets. See Acts 17: 28; Titus 2: 12.

In the same way, Ellen White quoted many writers but that fact shouldn't be taken to mean that the original writer was inspired or that everything they wrote was true.

[wayfinder]

Is it a critical point, a salvation truth, to know for sure if the Holy Spirit is feminine or masculine, I am sure it is not. What I have found, though, is that women appreciate the idea that possibly one member of the family of God is in touch with the feminine ideals and thought process. The idea of God as all males makes women feel second class, at best. I am not saying that women do not think that a male God is not able to understand them because He is male, but there is a certain misgiving about that relationship that cannot be helped. The evidence I have provided weights more on the side of the Holy Spirit being the feminine member of the family of God. The only text which may disprove that is John 16, and the language of that text has not been clearly resolved.

The woman of Revelation 12, who is in the wilderness for 1260 day/years, is depicted as being in the wilderness, because She has no children except the Son of God who is in heaven. She does not give birth to the last of Her offspring until coming out of the wilderness and just before the appearance of the first beast of Revelation 13. From the time that the 70 sevens ended in 33AD until the appearance of the kingdom described in Matthew 25:1-13, God did not have a kingdom on earth. The Mother of that kingdom was in the wilderness and preserved there by God while the dragon tried to wipe out all truth from this earth. The Holy Spirit is the source of truth, without Her we would not be able to recognize truth if it came up and bit us. It is the Spirit of Truth who gives us eyes to see and ears to hear and a mind capable of understanding the things of God. The 2300 eve/mornings ended in 1844AD, we are told, in prophecy, that when that time came the temple of God in heaven would be restored. The only way it could be restored is if it had ceased to function at some time. When Daniel sought to understand the vision recorded in chap. 8, the angel Gabriel was sent to give him insight and understanding. Daniel was told that the time determined for his people and his holy city was 70 sevens or 490 years. It stands to reason that the temple in heaven operates on behalf of God's kingdom on earth. The earthly temple was but a shadow of the temple in heaven. When the Son of God made the statement "your house is left to you desolate" He was saying that God had left for good and the Jews had only the building. The building was destroyed and they had nothing. At the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings the last kingdom of heaven appeared, they were those who went out to meet the Bridegroom in 1844. The 144,000 will soon make their appearance and the shaking of the kingdom of heaven will start soon after that.

This is my understanding from my own study, it makes sense to me and a handful of others.

[Steve Billiter]

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The woman is the church of course and she only gave birth once, to Christ The rest of the Christians are the remnant of her seed.

We are not told that the Holy Spirit is a she, that is pure speculation. My belief is that God manifests male and female characteristics at once, here is one example:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

This shows a mothers instinct to protect her babies.

[Guest]

Welcome to the forum Steve.

[Steve Billiter]

Hi wayfinder,

The 2300 eve/mornings ended in 1844AD, we are told, in prophecy, that when that time came the temple of God in heaven would be restored. The only way it could be restored is if it had ceased to function at some time.

This is incorrect. nothing is said about the temple being "restored." What Bible version are you using?

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

This means that in 1844 Jesus went from the Holy Place to the Most Holy to begin the final work of judgment. Since sin does not just magically disappear, it remains in the heavenly sanctuary until the final cleansing.

The temple in heaven never ceased to function.

I highly recommend a study upon liberal Bible versions such as the NIV that seeks to destroy much of the Word of God and lessens the deity of Christ.

Desmond Ford used the NIV to "prove" his faulty explanation of the sanctuary service as he ripped apart the investigative judgment, a solid Biblical pillar of the SDA church. Ford was defrocked.

http://www.bibleuniverse.com/bible-school.aspx

http://studies.bibleinfo.com/discover/start.php A

God Bless, Steve

[Steve Billiter]

I would say these writings are satanically inspired, why even post them? Is this edifying?

[John317]

Hi wayfinder,

The 2300 eve/mornings ended in 1844AD, we are told, in prophecy, that when that time came the temple of God in heaven would be restored. The only way it could be restored is if it had ceased to function at some time.

This is incorrect. nothing is said about the temple being "restored." What Bible version are you using?

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Here are several sources online for the significance of the word "tsadaq" as it occurs in Daniel 8: 14--

6663 tsadaq tsaw-dak' a primitive root; to be (causatively, make) right (in a moral or forensic sense):--cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just(-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be turn to) righteous(-ness).

-----------------

tsadaq

Pronunciation

tsä·dak' (Key)

Part of Speech

verb

Root Word (Etymology)

A primitive root

TWOT Reference

1879

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to be just, be righteous

a) (Qal)

1) to have a just cause, be in the right

2) to be justified

3) to be just (of God)

4) to be just, be righteous (in conduct and character)

(Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified

c) (Piel) justify, make to appear righteous, make someone righteous

d) (Hiphil)

1) to do or bring justice (in administering law)

2) to declare righteous, justify

3) to justify, vindicate the cause of, save

4) to make righteous, turn to righteousness

e) (Hithpael) to justify oneself

-------------------------

The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 6663 qdc

Original Word Word Origin

qdc a primitive root

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Tsadaq tsaw-dak'

Parts of Speech TWOT

Verb 1879

....

Translated Words

KJV (41) - cleansed, 1; clear ourselves, 1; just, 3; justice, 2; justify, 23; righteous, 10; righteousness, 1;

NAS (41) - acquit, 1; acquitted, 1; declare you right, 1; do justice, 1; give him justice, 1; just, 2; justified, 5; justifies, 1; justify, 5; justifying, 2; lead the to righteousness, 1; made your appear righteous, 2; properly restored, 1; proved right, 1; proved...righteous, 1; right, 4; righteous, 9; vindicated, 1; vindicates, 1;

-----------------------

Conclusion:

SDA theology in regard to the translation of Daniel 8: 14 accepts any of the following:

1. Be cleansed 2. Be vindicated 3. Be put right 4) Be put in a rightful condition 5) Be justified 6) Be declared right

See SDA Bible Commentary on Daniel 8: 14.

[John317]

... Male and Female is the immage of God. .....

I agree that it requires both the male and the female to adequately express the image of God in humanity. Generic man-- ie, mankind-- consists of both male and female.

Quote:

In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is always in the tense of an actual MALE person.

.... God is infinite and transends gender....

All three members of the trinity have male and female aspects..... Let's not go farther than the Bible. .....

You've made some very good points here, Kevin.

[John317]

I would say these writings are satanically inspired, why even post them? Is this edifying?

You'll notice that I didn't originally post them but am quoting them in order to show readers what Wayfinder and I are talking about.

Members will probably disagree about these writings. The fact that a member quotes something doesn't mean they agree with it.

[Woody]

Quote:

The fact that a member quotes something doesn't mean they agree with it.

A VERY good thing to keep in mind.