How much of Scripture is inspired?

[Guest]

If I have ever heard the voice of satan, it is here...

AMEN!!!

[Woody]

Quote:

AMEN!!!

Yep ... I recognize it.

[Woody]

Olger ... "is a well-known "reinterpreter" of Advent Movement truth. He is also deeply wrong about his ideas of sexuality. Deeply wrong."

[Guest]

End-Time Deception? In the wake of the Kellogg crisis in the early 1900s, Ellen White penned the following insightful scenario of what Satan sought to do in her day as well as in ours:

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization.

Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new

order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced.

The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless.

Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure" (Selected Messages, 1:204-205). In our final chapter we shall call attention to the implications of the above statement. At the moment, however, we must note the striking parallels between the above statement and the suggestions being made by advocates of the so-called Adventism for a New Generation:

(1) a repudiation of the doctrinal pillars of our faith;

(2) a quest for re-organization and new organizations (is this a reference to congregationalism and ecumenical alliances?);

(3) a disdain for the historic principles (Adventist pioneers' alleged "literal," "rigid," and "proof-text" method of interpretation, and the supposed "ethnocentric," "xenophobic," and "paranoic" theology of the remnant?);

(4) the introduction of intellectual philosophy(the "dynamic," "developmental," and "Christ-centered view of inspiration," and the sophisticated revision of Adventist theology to

make it intellectually acceptable to the "New Generation"?);

(5) the wonderful work in the cities (the charismatic "intercessory prayer" for renewal of our "cities and communities"?);

(6) the disregard of the Sabbath (even while professing "t open many non-Adventist minds to the value and meaning of the Sabbath"?);

(7) nothing stands in the way of this new movement (perhaps, the defiant and rebellious spirit that says "I'll go my own way regardless of what the world church thinks"?);

(8) the exaltation of virtue above vice on the basis of secular and humanistic principles, since God is left out, and the leaders depend on their own power (echoes of "justice," "compassion," "fairness," "equality," "moral imperative," "acceptance," "love," etc.?); and,

(9) the futility of building on a foundation of sand (the lethal bankruptcy of constructing

one's theological house on a foundation other than the Scriptures?).

Are we living in the days of a gathering storm, a storm which will soon sweep away any theological structure built upon the sand? If so, is this the time to encourage the liberal left to revise our understanding of apocalyptic books like Daniel, Revelation, and The Great Controversy?

Probably we are now in a better position to appreciate the full implications of the series of questions we quoted in Chapter One:

"Aren't we triumphalistic in seeing ourselves as the one true church? Hasn't the Sabbath/Sunday issue, so relevant when The Great Controversy was written, become obsolete in today's secular society? Haven't Adventists erred in focusing on the pope while neglecting to take a stand against oppressive dictators of the 20th century? Shouldn't we concentrate on the modern 'beasts' of ethnic hatred, oppression of minorities, and abuse of the eco-system?

Perhaps apocalyptic, with its sensationalism, represents an immature stage of Christianity. Perhaps we should replace it with the gospel of love, acceptance, and forgiveness." Where will the Adventist church be if we replace its historic doctrines--the three angels' messages or the "everlasting gospel" (Rev 14:6-14), as we commonly refer to them--with a gospel of mere "love, acceptance and forgiveness"? Can people preach such a gospel with certainty and conviction? Will such a church grow?

[Steve Billiter]

Great post Richard, I've just been studying this. I believe part of the omega is Ford, Sequeria, and Robert Wieland

[Guest]

Yes, the doctrine that says you're saved no matter what you do.

[Guest]

The Problem of Church Growth

Certainly, the Seventh-day Adventist church is thriving worldwide--particularly in the non-industrialized parts of the world. But Adventism is baptizing more people in the developing world not because the "very minimal way of life" in these areas conditions people to accept "anything that offers them a glimmer of hope for something better." On the contrary, people in developing countries do not just accept "anything" that offers hope--such as the

kinds of fables or myths that liberal scholarship presents as "objective truths." People join churches in which biblical truth is proclaimed with certainty, not with equivocation or tentativeness.

Therefore, it is a gross over-simplification to conclude that Adventism in some parts of the world is growing because "a person living in a mud hut somewhere is going to feel pretty happy about the possibility of living in mansions in heaven." True happiness is not measured by whether a person lives in a mud hut or a mansion. Instead, Jesus said, "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them" (John 13:17). Loving obedience to Christ is a

major secret of church growth. For, when Jesus lives in the heart, living in a hut offers more joy than the "joy" of more--earthly mansions, possessions, position, power, etc.

A more accurate reason why churches are growing in certain parts of the world is that the believers, teachers, evangelists, pastors, and leaders in these places still uphold the Bible's full inspiration, absolute trustworthiness, and inal authority in all issues of doctrine and lifestyle. But a theological house constructed upon shifting sand cannot stand; neither can it attract people who are seeking a church home as a place of refuge.

This is what is at stake in the quarrel between higher criticism and the historic Adventist plain reading of Scripture. It is this issue that has divided North American scholars between liberals and conservatives. It is this issue that has divided theological faculties. And if more and more students, church members, and leaders adopt the defective methodology of higher criticism, it becomes more likely that the worldwide church will be polarized theologically, not culturally. In other words, if the trend continues, what will divide "the church of the West" from "the rest of the church" will be their respective attitudes toward Scripture's

authority and interpretation.

One writer recently stumbled onto this truth: "The vote refusing the NAD permission to ordain its women is the real 'tip of the iceberg,' the iceberg being the clash between scriptural literalism, a view largely held in the developing world--Africa and much of South America and Inter-America, and a principle-based approach to Scripture followed in areas where the church has matured for a century and a half."

[Gerr]

Quote:

Young unmarried Christians must set their own boundaries in their sexual conduct.

Reminds me of conditions during the Judges, when everyman "did what was right in his own eyes."

[olger]

Yes, the doctrine that says you're saved no matter what you do.

Forsooth,

g

[oldsailor29]

The argument is between the fundamentalism and higher criticism, and historical SDAs are just a small part of the fundamentalist picture. However, all the disagreement is primarily over the interpretation of Old Testament scriptures. Jesus reinterpreted all of the Old Testament we need to know, and any interpretation of scripture other than that is unnecessary. So, we do not need to be concerned over fundamentalism and higher criticism.

[Guest]

Perception or Deception?

Our church faces a hermeneutical crisis--a crisis that threatens to divide our worldwide family by undermining the very basis of our unique identity and mission. Challenging our biblically-established doctrines is no indication of spiritual maturity or scholarly

enlightenment. Rather, it could signal the end-time departure from the faith which the Bible writers and Ellen G. White prophesied (2 Tim 4:3-4; Amos 8:11-12; cf. Selected Messages, 1:204-205).

We have shown that those who reject the historic Adventist approach in favor of the contemporary liberal approaches will ultimately deny the full authority of the Bible. When this happens, they will be faced with two choices: "the authority of the church expressed

through its [liberal] theologians and/or administrators, and the assumed authority of the Spirit expressed through charismatic renewal. In the former, the theological or administrative elite

determine for the church what parts of the Bible it may take as authoritative Scripture. In the latter, religious experience and excitement, rather than the objective written Word of God,

determine the faith. The first leads to a Catholic understanding of the nature of the church, the second to a Pentecostal understanding."

Bible-believing Adventists need to be aware of what is at stake in this new papalism of the scholar, administrator, or "charismatic" interpreter. "Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the

multitudes according to his will" (The Great Controversy, p. 595).

Thus, the reading of Scripture through the hermeneutical lenses of the historical-critical method is not evidence of true insight or clear perception but rather an omen of blindness or deception. Ellen White anticipated our times when she wrote: "In our day, as of old, the vital truths of God's word are set aside for human theories and

speculations. Many professed ministers of the gospel do not accept the whole Bible as the inspired word. One wise man rejects one portion; another quesions another part. They set up their judgment as superior to the Word; and the Scripture which they do teach rests upon their own authority.

Its divine authenticity is destroyed. Thus seeds of infidelity are sown broadcast; for the people become confused and know not what to believe. . . . Christ rebuked these practices in His day. He taught that the word of God was to be understood by all. He pointed to the Scriptures as of unquestionable authority, and we should do the same. The Bible is to be presented as the word of the infinite God, as the end of all controversy and the foundation of all faith" (Christ's Object Lessons, p. 39).

Let us not be misled by fancy labels that sound good--labels like: "historic method," "principle approach," "contextual approach," "casebook approach," "progressive approach,"

"dynamic approach," "developmental approach," "matured approach," "Christ-centered approach," etc. Neither should we be misled by the suggestion that because "a majority of our scholars" hold a particular view, that view must be right. Like the Bereans of old, we must search the Scriptures to see whether the views they hold are biblically sound. And having ascertained the truth for ourselves, whenever new views are urged upon us we must reply in

the words of Martin Luther: "Unless I am convinced by the plain testimony of Scripture, I shall not recant."

Since the Bible is the only dependable source of knowledge about our Savior Jesus Christ and His plan of salvation, we should heed this inspired counsel: "Brethren, cling to your Bible, as it reads, and stop your criticisms in regard to its validity, and obey the Word, and not one of you will be lost" (Selected Messages, 1:18).

In the above statement we find the two hermeneutical options facing the church: taking the Bible "as it reads" (the historic Adventist plain reading of Scripture) and "criticisms" (liberalism's historical-critical methods). The choice we make will result in either clear perception or blind deception regarding the biblical message.

The relevance of the above counsel will become clearer in the next chapter, "Contending for the Word." But as we conclude the current chapter we would echo Ellen White's plea: "Brethren, cling to your Bible, as it reads, and stop your criticisms in regard to its validity, and obey the Word, and not one of you will be lost" (Selected Messages, 1:18).

[oldsailor29]

All of you fundamentalists are tossing exegesis aside as your hermeneutic. You want no part of learning the historical context of scripture. You want no part of learning the literary context of scripture. You want no part in learning the beliefs of the Bible writers and their people. And you want no part in the careful i.e. "critical" study of scripture. You are tossing that aside, and that is exegesis, which is the act of extracting from scripture that which the writer meant to say, and not reading into scripture anything which the writer did not mean to say.

All you have left for your hermeneutic is the homily. Homiletically, we can believe anything we think scripture means. We can assume the beliefs of ancient people was the same as ours. And we can take scripture which was written for them as if it was written for us. This kind of thinking is the reason we have so many diverse beliefs in Christianity today. This is fundamentalism, and it is a tool of the devil.

However, just as God has done with every other tool of the devil in the past, He will turn this to His advantage. Any and every false doctrine which has been developed through the plain reading of scripture can become true doctrine through Gods intervention.

But as I survey the big picture here, I see that this controversy between fundamentalists and scholars is actually moot. Their argument is concerning the Old Testament, which has been reinterpreted by Jesus. All we really need to do, to stay on the right path is read what Jesus said, and follow Him. This is a truth which was part of sister Ellen's first vision, so the historical SDAs should have no problem with it.

[Guest]

Brethren, cling to your Bible, as it reads, and stop your criticisms in regard to its validity, and obey the Word, and not one of you will be lost. The ingenuity of men has been exercised for ages to measure the Word of God by their finite minds and limited comprehension. If the Lord, the Author of the living oracles, would throw back the curtain and reveal His wisdom and His glory before them, they would shrink into nothingness and exclaim as did Isaiah, "I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of people of unclean lips" (Isaiah 6:5). {1SM 18}

Oldsailor, you believe something that is not even in the Bible. That everyone is going to be saved.

[wayfinder]

Oldsailor29, I agree with you to a certain extent, but I believe that when God gave information for a certain generation that that generation would not have to understand according to the context of understanding at the time the information was given. For instance, the following two texts.

Daniel 12:4 NAS

"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time ; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

John 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ;

The concealed words of the prophecy would not be correctly understood until the time for the true understanding had come. If we are living at the end of time then the words should be clear for understanding by the people today.

The text in John 17 is Jesus prayer and in this verse asks the Father to accept those who believe in Him through the words of His disciple writers (Matthew and John). For the Father to answer the prayer of His Son, in the affirmative, those alive today must be able to believe the truth through the words of these two desciples, today.

[Guest]

"'It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the

Testimonies,' 'Satan knows how to make his attacks. He works upon minds to excite jealousy and dissatisfaction toward those at the head of the work. The gifts are next questioned; then, of course, they have but little weight, and instruction given through vision is disregarded.' 'Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the

Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up,

Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction'" (Testimonies for the Church, 5:672,).

[Guest]

For the Father to answer the prayer of His Son, in the affirmative, those alive today must be able to believe the truth through the words of these two desciples, today.

So you have it narrowed down to two now.....

[Guest]

Contending for the Word

In the previous chapter we showed how some Seventh-day Adventists are departing from the Word. But this deviation from the Word cannot be fully understood unless it is seen in its total cosmic framework. As we suggested at the end of that chapter, skepticism towards the

full inspiration, trustworthiness, and the sole authority of Scripture is a vital phase in the enemy's end-time strategy to lead God's people away from the pillars of their faith and especially from the Spirit of Prophecy.

The Enemy's Plan.

'It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the

Testimonies,' 'Satan knows how to make his attacks. He works upon minds to excite jealousy and dissatisfaction toward those at the head of the work. The gifts are next questioned; then, of course, they have but little weight, and instruction given through vision is disregarded.' 'Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the

Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up,

Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction'" (Testimonies for the Church, 5:672,).

Disregard of the Bible. "The agencies which will unite against truth and righteousness in this contest are now actively at work. God's holy word, which has been handed down to us at such a cost of suffering and blood, is but little valued. The Bible is within the reach of all, but there are few who really accept it as the guide of life. Infidelity prevails to an alarming extent, not in the world merely, but in the church.

Many have come to deny doctrines which are the very pillars of the Christian faith. The great facts of creation as presented by the inspired writers, the fall of man, the atonement, and the perpetuity of the law of God, are practically rejected, either wholly or in part, by a large share of the professedly Christian world.

Thousands who pride themselves upon their wisdom and independence regard it an evidence of weakness to place implicit confidence in the Bible; they think it a proof of superior talent and learning to cavil at the Scriptures and to spiritualize and explain away their most important truths. Many ministers are teaching their people, and many professors and teachers are instructing their students, that the law of God has been changed or abrogated; and those who regard its requirements as still valid, to be literally obeyed, are thought to be deserving only of ridicule or contempt"

(The Great Controversy, pp. 582-583).

[wayfinder]

When Jesus prayed this prayer He had eleven disciples of those eleven we know that Matthew and John wrote what they heard Jesus teach. We surmise that Mark received his information from Peter, and I am fine with that. Do you know anyone else who Jesus may have been referring to when He said "their word"?

[Guest]

All his disciples. That would include me.

[Guest]

The Need to Contend for the Faith

Inspired Warnings. The apostle Paul warned: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (1 Tim 4:1, 2).

Ellen G. White had this text in mind when she explained the reason for her published writings. She wrote: "I am instructed that the Lord, by His infinite power, has preserved the right hand of His messenger for more than half a century, in order that the truth may be written out as He bids me write it for publication, in periodicals and books. Why?-- Because if it were not thus

written out, when the pioneers in the faith shall die, there would be many, new in the faith, who would sometimes accept as messages of truth teachings that contain erroneous sentiments and dangerous fallacies. Sometimes that which men teach as 'special light' is in reality specious error, which, as tares sown among the wheat, will spring up and produce a baleful harvest. And errors of this sort will be entertained by some until the close of this earth's history" (This Day with God, p. 126,).

Given the strange winds of doctrine blowing in our day, can we doubt that our generation could be witnessing the predicted end-time departure from the faith? Skepticism abounds with regard to vital pillars of our faith; doubts are created about the Holy Scriptures; our critics despise the historic plain reading of Scripture as a "literal," "rigid," "proof-text" or "Fundamentalist" method; "books of a new order" are being published and distributed; doctrinal tares are being broadcast by voice and by pen. And at a time when we most need the Testimonies, we are being told that Mrs. White's messages were culturally conditioned; if relevant at all, they are suitable only for devotional purposes. These prevailing conditions demand a courageous, resolute response.

[wayfinder]

1 Kings 18:17 NAS

When Ahab saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, "Is this you, you troubler of Israel ?"

Matthew 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first ?" 11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things ; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

The promised "Elijah" type prophet will come before the great tribulation. He will be a troubler of "Israel" and will confront the woman "Jezebel", who calls herself a prophetess (Revelation 2), whom ever she may be.

[Guest]

Contending for the Word.

The admonition of Jude, the brother of our Lord Jesus Christ, is

particularly applicable to our times: "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for

all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord" (Jude 3, 4 NIV).

Ellen White stated in a similar context: "My message to you is: No longer consent to listen without protest to the perversion of truth. Unmask the pretentious sophistries which, if received, will lead ministers and physicians and medical missionary workers to ignore the truth. Every oneis now to stand on his guard. God calls upon men and women to take their stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel. I have been instructed to warn our people; for many

are in danger of receiving theories and sophistries that undermine the foundation pillars of the faith" (Selected Messages, 1:196-197).

She asked: "What are God's servants doing to raise the barrier of a 'Thus saith the Lord' against this evil? The enemy's agents are working unceasingly to prevail against the truth.1 Where are the

faithful guardians of the Lord's flocks? Where are His watchmen? Are they standing on the high tower, giving the danger signal, or are they allowing the peril to pass unheeded?" (ibid., p. 194,).

[wayfinder]

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine ; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone ; how is it that You say, 'You will become free '?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever ; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants ; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father ; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God ; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication ; we have one Father : God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying ? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin ? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God ; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

[Guest]

What are you trying to say wayf?

[wayfinder]

You and I are both searching for the truth. We believe that the truth is accessable and we will recognize it when we find it, right? The truth unifies, it never divides. As long as we are divided we know that one of us, or both, do not have the truth. I know that the truth is discoverable or Jesus was misleading us about His mission and purpose for coming to this earth. I expect that we will be unified in our understanding if we are honest with ourself. That is what I am saying.

John 8:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king ?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."