Sunday Laws

[GreatLakesGramma]

A man from our pastor's other church owns a used car lot. He has to renew his dealer's license each year, and recently received the form he must fill out for this purpose. The form lists the legal requirements for operating a lot in Michigan. The very last item stated that no cars may be bought or sold on Sunday. The phrase "may not buy or sell" was used 3 times in the explanation of this new law.

[Dr. Shane]

It is not the "big one", Sister Christine. This is no different than Sunday blue laws and the high court has even upheld this blue laws as not violating church and state.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Shane, of course it isn't the "Big One". I didn't say it was, and I didn't think so either. Just a small indication of the way the wind is blowing, and of how quickly and unexpectedly things can change.

Here in Michigan everyone is open on Sundays. Almost nobody closes on Sundays, not even most christian businesses. Yet here, out of the blue, the state is suddenly requiring Sunday closing. Nobody even heard anything about this being in consideration in the legislature. It just quietly, inoccuously was passed, signed into law by our governor, Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, with no fuss, and hardly any notice by anyone.

[Dr. Shane]

And we are now in a time when blue laws are hard to oppose morally. When AT Jones was opposing them the Bible was being used as a textbook in many public schools. Protestant America controlled the educational system and all branches of government.

Today things are so different. Judges cannot even have the Ten Commandments on the wall in their courtroom. A public school teacher cannot even say grace before the children eat lunch. The idea of forcing businesses to close one day each week seems a bit refreshing in our increasingly secular nation.

Is it a slippery slope that will lead to the "big one"? Maybe, but probbally not. Should Adventists take a stand on it? Well, that is hard to say. In one aspect it does give us an opportunity to talk about religious liberty and the Sabbath. However in another aspect it places us side by side with secular humanists that oppose God. That is an affliation we won't want to have once the Sunday laws are passed.

[Fran]

Shane;

I do not believe she was referring to the "BIG" one. She is sounding a warning about another LITTLE one, and of course you know how laws become law right? They weight all of the Little Ones then weigh those for and the against to figure out the Big One.

Go to http://ola.adventist.org/ and look at all of the LITTLE ones in place. You will love this site. When the Sunday Law gets to the Supreme Court, all of these Little ones combined will be used to determine the BIG one. Everything is already in place. All we need is for all of these Common Laws to be made concrete. The BIG ONE is nearer than any of us think I am afraid.

Warnings are coming out all the time. It is happening in front of our eyes and we say, "No big deal this is just a small thing!" Don’t feel alone. I said that myself for years, but when I found OLA I have changed my mind completely around.

I think this is a big deal. Read about our religious freedom on the above sight. In fact you can sign up to receive emails as to what is current news and see what our church is doing to protect our freedoms that most of us take for granted. The puzzle pieces are being placed and so the picture will soon be clear as glass. Will it be too late?

Praise God we have those at OLA that notice the little pieces being put in the BIG puzzle! So come Lord Jesus!

[Dr. Shane]

Sister Fran, it appears you didn't get to read my post before making yours.

Sunday blue laws may lead the "big one" however they are not, in themselves, a violation of religious liberty. It would be a violation of religious liberty if they forbid us (Adventists) from observing the Sabbath on Saturday. It is not a violation of religious liberty when they do not allow us to do business on Sunday.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "It is not a violation of religious liberty when they do not allow us to do business on Sunday."

Shane, would you say that it is a violation of religious liberty if the law said: "Lawful businesses owned and/or operated by people who observe Saturday as a holy day must close two days a week, but people who do not observe Saturday are only required to close one day a week."

Shane, a Sabbath keeper, is such circumstances msut close on both Saturdays and on Sundays,whereas others must close only on Sundays. The Sabbath keeper has a built in disadvantage that is solely baised upon religious belief and practice. That is religious discrimination.

[Robert]

Why do you guys consider "Sunday laws" dangerous?

[Dr. Shane]

In Clifford Goldstein's book, "One Nation Under God?" he wrote, "If religion is tied to morality, and morality is tied to politics, then inevitabley religion will affect politics, and the last thing those who believe in God's law ought to do - or even appear to be doing - is fight every attempt to legislate those principles out of fear that each step brings us closer to the 'mark of the beast'" He goes on to write, "Once we concede, as we must, that the state should make moral laws, even if those morals are linked to, or are parallel to, religion, then 'secular' Sunday legislation becomes sensible."

I agree with Brother Goldstein.

[Nicodema]

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However in another aspect it places us side by side with secular humanists that oppose God. That is an affliation we won't want to have once the Sunday laws are passed.

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And why not? That is an affiliation that will enable them to see with clear eyes untainted by previous religious "programming" that we know in whom we believe and furthermore that we stand out in CONTRAST to those who have been their opponents and detractors for years. It is an affiliation that will enable our message to REACH them. Those who are marching up and down the square with the Beast now will be able to spot the difference on their own when it is made known with or without our help, IF their hearts are true. But these others NEED our witness.

I say we ALWAYS take a stand on religious and civil liberty -- for everyone. That is what makes us different and marks us as genuine children of God. ANYONE can pretend to be "holier than thou" and play the "more moral than thou" game. We have a message and a purpose to stick to. We need to be giving that trumpet a certain sound!

NOW is the time to sound the Third Angel's message: "If ANY man worship the beast, and receive his mark in his right hand or in his forehead, the same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH of God which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation ..." Not merely because of this one instance, of course, but because of the entire scope within which this one instance is arising and occurring, and the fact that it will not end there -- a fact we have known now for 160 YEARS.

[Nicodema]

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It would be a violation of religious liberty if they forbid us (Adventists) from observing the Sabbath on Saturday. It is not a violation of religious liberty when they do not allow us to do business on Sunday.

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I completely disagree here. Binding me to the inability to earn a living on what is for me a day I am COMMANDED BY GOD TO WORK is most certainly a violation of religious liberty. Bear in mind the sabbath command is not just about resting one day, but about working six: "Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work ..."

[Dr. Shane]

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And why not? That is an affiliation that will enable them to see with clear eyes untainted by previous religious "programming"

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In the final days God's Sabbath-keeping people will be accused of bringing misery on the world in the form of famines and natural disasters. If these same people have a history of opposing God, it will be that much easier for them to be blamed for the world's misery. That is why it is not wise for us to seek alliances with secular humanists.

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I completely disagree here. Binding me to the inability to earn a living on what is for me a day I am COMMANDED BY GOD TO WORK is most certainly a violation of religious liberty.

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It is no more a violation of your religious freedom then the government making you pay your employees holiday pay for working on Christmas. In fact, forcing holiday pay on Christmas is more of a violation of religous liberty than Sunday blue laws - but that would be a topic for another thread.

I agree with Brother Goldstien, who by no means is a friend of the Religeous Right. Sunday blue laws are not the mark of the beast and it is not wise for us to spend much time opposing them.

I will share with you that in Mexico and many Latin American countries many people only work a few days a week or a few hours a day. Of course they are much poorer than us and don't have our lifestyle. None the less, most of us can make a living by working five days a week. And if we can't work on Sunday and still do not work on Sabbath is not God faithful to provide for our needs?

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane, I do not oppose Sunday laws because I think that they are the Mark of the Beast. I do not oppose them for reasons associated with morality.

I oppose them because they discriminate against Sabbath keepers. They effectively make certain businsesses owned by Sabbath keepers close for business on two days of the week whereas non-Sabbath keepers only have to close on one day of the week.

The welfare purposes of the State could be served by other means. For example we could pass laws that:

a) Stated one could not work an employee more than X number of hours a week, or X nubmer of days in a week/month/year.

State that certain businesses could not conduce business after a certain time of day on all days of the week.

c) Stated that all employees had a right to chose a day of the week on which they would not be required to work. Such would allow families to have a common day off of work and school.

[Gregory Matthews]

Let me tell you a true story that involved a member of my congregation when I was a local chruch pastor.

The State of Virginia passed a strict Sunday law that included medical doctors in its provisions. There was a physician in my congregation who had always closed his practice on the Sabbath (yes, he provided required care to hospitalized patients), and he held regular office hours on Sundays--the only medical doctor in the area who did that.

One Sunday morning he was given information that the police were on the way to arrest him, and charge him with violating the newly passed Sunday law by seeing patients in violation of the law. The police did come, and found a sign on his office door that stated his office was closed on Sundays until such time at the courts rulled that he could practice medicine on Sundays.

He obtained the services a a law firm, challenged the Sunday law in court as it applied to medical doctors, and lost. So, he never again held office hours on Sundays.

The reallity is that he may have lost the legal battle due to hiring a law firm that was not expert in the area. He asked the SDA Chruch for help, and was refused. The Religious Liberty people in the SDA Chruch decided not no help him challenge the law, and he probably did not have the best in lawyers.

Shane, do what you want with this story. In any case, it is true. I was there. He was a member of my congregation.

[cricket]

Well, what did God do to help this physician?

[Nicodema]

You've made some good points Shane. I'll think them over. Thanks for your insights.

I personally prefer to have Sunday free from paid employ -- for my HOUSEwork and errands that can't get done Monday - Friday!

Nico

[Dr. Shane]

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The Religious Liberty people in the SDA Chruch decided not no help him challenge the law

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That is because Sunday blue-laws is a dog our Religious Liberty department no longer chases.

Do Sunday blue laws hurt some Adventist businesses? Yes. Does that mean they are a violation of religious liberty? No. If I own a grocery store and my state passes the lottery, my business will be hurt. Why? Becuase as a Seventh-day Adventist I will not sell lottery tickets so many of my customers will shop where they can buy tickets. So is the lottery a violation of religious liberty? No. Even though it hurts the businesses of the religious people that refuse to sell them, it is not a violation of religious liberty.

[LifeHiscost]

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Binding me to the inability to earn a living on what is for me a day >>I am COMMANDED BY GOD TO WORK<< is most certainly a violation of religious liberty.

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Just a comment here, Nico, re: >> <<, not suggesting that everything I received from your message is really what you were sending, however from this vantage point you seem to

attribute >> <<, as, "I am demanded by God to work".

I would like to suggest that the commandment given by God only becomes a demand to unbelievers as opposed to an instruction in how to live righteously, successfully for the follower of Jesus and His Father. I'm aware that you already believe much of what I say but I thought it would be good to spell out the difference between a sheep who, [:"red"] "hears My voice and they follow..." [/] (John 10:4) willingly, and the unbeliever who sees God's instruction as demands and subsequently grits their teeth while struggling to obey, or makes as much effort as possible to destroy the Divine principles, since they base their salvation on what they consider an impossibility to follow.

[:"red"] "[Earnestly] remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (withdrawn from common employment and dedicated to God)"[/] Ex 20:8 Amp

[:"red"] "Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit." [/] John 15:5

Notice both of these instructions become a part of the active Christians life, and the more so as personal faith in the Word grows stronger.

[:"red"] "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." [/] Matthew 19:26 KJV

I recognize there will be much flak from those conclusions so I also wish to add that it is necessary to see man's efforts this side of the kingdom as less than perfect so a thought from 1 Cor 13 would be in order.

[:"red"] "For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded)." [/]

1 Cor 13:9,10 Amp

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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However in another aspect it places us side by side with secular humanists that oppose God. That is an affliation we won't want to have once the Sunday laws are passed.

---

And why not? That is an affiliation that will enable them to see with clear eyes untainted by previous religious "programming" that we know in whom we believe and furthermore that we stand out in CONTRAST to those who have been their opponents and detractors for years. It is an affiliation that will enable our message to REACH them. Those who are marching up and down the square with the Beast now will be able to spot the difference on their own when it is made known with or without our help, IF their hearts are true. But these others NEED our witness.

I say we ALWAYS take a stand on religious and civil liberty -- for everyone. That is what makes us different and marks us as genuine children of God. ANYONE can pretend to be "holier than thou" and play the "more moral than thou" game. We have a message and a purpose to stick to. We need to be giving that trumpet a certain sound!

NOW is the time to sound the Third Angel's message: "If ANY man worship the beast, and receive his mark in his right hand or in his forehead, the same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH of God which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation ..." Not merely because of this one instance, of course, but because of the entire scope within which this one instance is arising and occurring, and the fact that it will not end there -- a fact we have known now for 160 YEARS.

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Probably how we would be affiliated would make a difference in whether we would want that affiliation, but for the most part I agree with all, without being nit-picky, your post includes.

[:"red"] "If possible, so far as it depends on you; be at peace with all men." [/] Romans 12:18 NASB

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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Just a comment here, Nico, ... not suggesting that everything I received from your message is really what you were sending, however from this vantage point you seem to attribute [commanded] as, "I am demanded by God to work".

I would like to suggest that the commandment given by God only becomes a demand to unbelievers as opposed to an instruction in how to live righteously, successfully for the follower of Jesus and His Father. I'm aware that you already believe much of what I say but I thought it would be good to spell out the difference between a sheep who, [:"red"] "hears My voice and they follow..." [/] (John 10:4) willingly, and the unbeliever who sees God's instruction as demands and subsequently grits their teeth while struggling to obey, or makes as much effort as possible to destroy the Divine principles, since they base their salvation on what they consider an impossibility to follow.

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Not a problem if you want to emphasize that difference. It is worth emphasizing. I surely did not intend use of the word "commanded" to indicate the demanding of a harsh taskmaster by any means. And I appreciate your watchcare over my spirit as a sibling in the Lord.

Peace to your house.