Doug Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 We have a couple of crazy people here, both of them are members and they are not right in the head. One guy used to go to my school, not sure what he has but he goes around preaching nonsense to people. We were having bible study tonight and he came in and started preaching/ranting/making nonsense and a friend tried to interrupt him so the speaker could continue his sermon and he told her to "shut up, women are not allowed to speak in the church" and "if you were my wife I wouldn't let you speak at all" or something to the effect. meanwhile we had guests who were not SDA's coming to hear the message. it was pretty embarrassing. another time for church we had an animal expert come in and he came to the front of the church and said "unclean animals were not allowed in the church" which they weren't. The other guy was a doctor before he semi-retired. He and the pastor had some kind of disagreement and the doctor won't let the issue go, he has taken it as far as the General Conference president, he is trying to get the senior pastor in trouble or fired. I hear the whole thing is over a $100 microphone. Someone said they think he might flipout and try to injure the senior pastor, I doubt it but anything is possible. Nobody takes these guys seriously, which is dangerous I think because people can't be trusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haldog Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Jesus told us what to do. He has given us the authority to cast out demons, so do it. The first guy has a spirit of confusion as there is no instruction from god concerning unclean animals in the church. The second is the spirit of rebellion which is defined in the bible as witchcraft. If you don't cast out these spirits, who will? Quote "You may not agree with everyone. But if you are an honest man, when someone says something you disagree with it’ll drive you to the Word. If you find out that you were wrong and change your thinking then you are the better for it. If you go to the Word and find out that you were right then you have been strengthened. But either way always go to the Word!!” Billye Brim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 14, 2009 If they become a distraction, is it not proper for the deacons or elders to show them the door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 The first guy came before the church council and asked to be removed from the church, so he isn't a member anymore. The pastor is sometimes too nice to people, this guy even has keys to the church, He has ODC about locking up things, many times other people won't lock up afterwards but this guy goes around and locks things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 DOUG MAYBE it is time to disfellowship both of these people I know there is a thread about this but if they are both causing a problem the problem needs to be gotten rid of dgrimm60 Disfellowship is never in order in my humble view. But a restraining order for as long as they remain crazy ... would be appropriate. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 It has been suggested on this thread that these persons are either Demon-possessed or have some kind of mental disorder (crazy). Now which is it? Clearly this is importanr as the treatment would be radically different in each case. So what is the test or tests which would enable anyone to determine what the root problem was/is? Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2009 Members Share Posted November 15, 2009 Yes dgrimm some very interesting questions. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2009 Members Share Posted November 15, 2009 Yes I have in the original thread that Redwood started. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2009 Members Share Posted November 15, 2009 Yes dgrimm I did see that one. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Doug, If I recall right, didn't most of the people think that Jesus was crazy? Also you can read about some serious words prophets gave to the people that made them think he was crazy. #1. Didn't Paul say not to let women say anything in church? If so, AND if Paul was being led by God (which I seriously doubt), then you also believe that Paul was a true apostle, then why would you and the rest of the church not follow what Paul wrote? This guy probably thinks you are crazy for believing in Paul's words, but not following along with his advice about women. Hmmmm? #2. Now, if you and your church members still believe in clean and unclean animals and that touching these so called uncleaned animals is wrong, (and don't believe in what Jesus said about it is not what you eat or touch, but what you say that is 'unclean') then why would you think the guy is crazy for not wanting unclean animals in the church? Didn't Jesus ride on an unclean animal? Was this a sin? I don't think so! Hmmmm? To answer you question though--the best thing to do about this is to hold a true debate with them and then go with the weight of the evidence provided. By the way, the test for everything regarding the Bible is this: John 14:26 and 20:20. Test everything by the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. If anything does not agree with this, then it is seriously subject to scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Let I get this straight. Now you're going to compare the crazy man to Jesus? As I have pointed out to you before, John 14:26 is not a test of any kind. It is a promise not a test. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. How is that a test? The same with Jn 20:20 Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. How is this a test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2009 Members Share Posted November 15, 2009 Richard this is what the Complete Jewish Bible says for John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Ruach HaKodesh, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything; that is, he will remind you of everything I have said to you." and John 20:20 "Having greeted them, he showed them his hands and his side. The talmidim were overjoyed to see the Lord. Now having read these 2 verses I have to agree with you Richard. Not sure Dr. Rich what you are trying to say these verses are saying? Because to me, there is no test there. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 ooops, so sorry, I typed it out so fast I did not even look at it. I meant to type in John 17:20. Here is the thing (don't use the Jewish bible either) Jesus was talking ONLY to His disciples when He told them that the Holy Spirit (Which He breathed on them in John 21) would cause THEM (not you or me) to remember (someone can't do this unless they have heard it before) everything Jesus said (and Jesus said what the Father wanted Him to say)--so that when they were going to write it down or have their scribe write it down for them, that the Holy Spirit would cause them (again, not you or I) to correctly remember so that when you and I read what they wrote, that we can take this to the bank! Now, if you can't understand this simple test, I am truly sorry for you. If someone can find something wrong with this test, please do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2009 Members Share Posted November 15, 2009 The context around John 17:20 doesn't show me that there is a test going on Dr. Rich. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 pk, let me spell it out for you again: John 14:26 Jesus tells His disciples (this is NOT for you or me or anyone else for that matter) that the disciples will have the Holy Spirit given to them (and that happened as found in John 20:21) and the Holy Spirit will cause them to remember everything that Jesus said that His Father wanted His to testify to, WHEN THEY WRITE it down or have a scribe write it for them as found in John 17:20 (those who believe in Jesus through THEIR words). The test is the words of Jesus which were given to us by His eyewitnesses. It is just that simple! Revelation 12:17 gives us a clue as to who will be the bondservants. They are the ones who keep the ten commandments AND the Testimony of Jesus. (Not Joseph Smith, Mohammad, Nostradamus, EGW or even Paul.) So, it all boils down to the words of Jesus. He came to this world to testify to the truth as found in John 18:37. If anyone says anything that does not agree with what Jesus said, then be careful with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I don't see anything in the text that says it is not for you or me. Those are your words Rich, and only your words. As usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 The exclusiveness comes from Rich, not the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 16, 2009 Members Share Posted November 16, 2009 Why can't it mean that you or I will remember the words of the scripture that we read when the time comes that we need to remember specific things? When Jesus spoke to the disciples, why can't we take what He promised them, as a promise also to us? We should be able to personalize the Bible to our needs....look at the Psalms...they can be personalized to one's needs or praise to God. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I don't find anything in the texts that say that you were personally with Jesus Christ while He was on this earth to have the Holy Spirit cause you to remember either! (He who has an ear--let him hear) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Hey Pam, please read what Jesus said in John 17:20-21 and you will see that He said this for unity--not for you to believe in one thing and me another. The ONLY way we can have the unity that Jesus prayed for is for all of us to repent from believing what other people say and write, and follow ONLY the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. Now that's the bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 16, 2009 Members Share Posted November 16, 2009 Excellent post rudywoofs. This is very much how I see it. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Why can't it mean that you or I will remember the words of the scripture that we read when the time comes that we need to remember specific things? When Jesus spoke to the disciples, why can't we take what He promised them, as a promise also to us? We should be able to personalize the Bible to our needs....look at the Psalms...they can be personalized to one's needs or praise to God. You are excactly right Pam. It is for you and me. Jesus knew the words would be written and handed down from generation to generation, all the way to the end. To think that he was saying this is for you guys and nobody else is just silly and not part of his wording. Like Rich would have you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted November 16, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2009 Pkrause said: Quote: Richard this is what the Complete Jewish Bible says for John 14:26 ". . . JUdiasim is a religion. It is not a nationality. It is not an ethnic group. It is not a language. NOTE I know you did nto say it was. Are you telling us, by saying that the Jewish Bible includes what we call the New Testament? I do not think so. I have seen and read Jewish Bblies, so to speak. They have never included the New Testament. The essence of Judiasm is a rejection of Christ. THe gospel of John, which gives witness to Christ as God would never be accepted by a membera of the Jewish religon as a spiritul authority. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Jewish_Bible Have you never heard of Messianic Jews? Seriously? Also, have you NEVER heard of the Jewish ethnic group? Why do you think there are so many Jews around who have nothing to do with the religion but call themselves Jews? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 16, 2009 Members Share Posted November 16, 2009 The Jewish Bible I have is translated by David H. Stern. Here are a few links Gregory, http://www.rabbidust.com/authors_artists/david_h_stern/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H._Stern. Gregory I've very much enjoyed comparing this to our christian bible's and must say I prefer it. Also have been comparing it to the "Complete Tanach with Rashi" and again I prefer both of these versions to our christian Bible's. Here is a link to that: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm Let me know what you think. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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