What to do about a couple of crazy people in our church.

[Gregory Matthews]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Jewish_Bible

Have you never heard of Messianic Jews? Seriously?

Also, have you NEVER heard of the Jewish ethnic group? Why do you think there are so many Jews around who have nothing to do with the religion but call themselves Jews?

Yes, I have heard of Messianic Jews. That term is a religious corruption that is never accepted by people who understand Judiasiam. Messianic Jews are actually Christian as they accept Christ. The fundamental issue with Judiasm is its rejection of Christ. No one who accepts Christ is Jewish.

You cite wikipedia, but you left out an important part of your citation, see:

Quote:

. The New Testament is an original translation from the ancient Greek. It claims to be "Jewish in manner and presentation." [1][2]

You will note that wikipedia correctly ponts out that the claim is made that the New Testament is Jewish in manner and in presentation. The translators claim of manner and presentation does not make it Jewish and it is not Jewish. It simply claims to be like Jewish. That does not make it so.

Jewish ethnic group: Judiasm is a religion that acknowledges seccular Jews. So called seccular Jews are accepted into the Jewish relilgion.

Jewish ethnic group: Sociologists have deep arguements over the proper defination of the term "ethnic." In any case there are some who would be willing to classify a Jewish Ethnic Group. However, the term "Ethnic" has a number of important aspects included in its defination.

You clearly referenced a Jewish Bible and cited a passage in the gospel of John. That useage brought your term into the religious area. As such it was imappropriate for you to so use it. There is no such thing as a Jewish Bible that accepts the New Testament in the religioius context. It does not exist.

Your citation from wikipedia does not prove your point. Rather it simply states that the cited Bible makes the claim. It does not state it as fact.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Jewish Bible I have is translated by David H. Stern. Here are a few links Gregory, http://www.rabbidust.com/authors_artists/david_h_stern/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H._Stern. Gregory I've very much enjoyed comparing this to our christian bible's and must say I prefer it. Also have been comparing it to the "Complete Tanach with Rashi" and again I prefer both of these versions to our christian Bible's. Here is a link to that: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

Let me know what you think.

pk

I have stated what I think in a previous post.

If you want to purchase a real Jewish Bible you can do so. It will not contain anything from the New Testament.

Stern was a Christian who attempted to translate in the manner and style of Judiasm so that he could call his book a Jewish Bible.

One cannot rightly claim that the work of a Christian is Jewish.

Maybe we should all go out and claim that STEPS TO CHRIST by EGW is actually a Jewish work!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: dgrimm60

DOUG

MAYBE it is time to disfellowship both of these people

I know there is a thread about this but if they are

both causing a problem the problem needs to be gotten

rid of

dgrimm60

Disfellowship is never in order in my humble view. But a restraining order for as long as they remain crazy ... would be appropriate.

Of course - as we all know -- one of those options is in the Bible -- the other one is not.

In Christ,

Bob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Disfellowship is never in order in my humble view. But a restraining order for as long as they remain crazy ... would be appropriate.

Of course - as we all know -- one of those options is in the Bible -- the other one is not.

So what if a restraining order is not "Biblical"? These people are causing civil problems, albeit in a church setting, so why not use a restraining order, if necessary? We did it in our church when a fist fight broke out between members when someone slapped a man's wife. The police were called in and the one at fault was given a restraining order for a period of time. That solved the problem.

[SivartM]

Yes, I have heard of Messianic Jews. That term is a religious corruption that is never accepted by people who understand Judiasiam. Messianic Jews are actually Christian as they accept Christ. The fundamental issue with Judiasm is its rejection of Christ. No one who accepts Christ is Jewish.

[Woody]

Quote:

Of course - as we all know -- one of those options is in the Bible -- the other one is not.

I would offer to you that the restraining order is much more Biblical than the disfellowshipping.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Of course - as we all know -- one of those options is in the Bible -- the other one is not.

So what if a restraining order is not "Biblical"? These people are causing civil problems' date=' albeit in a church setting, so why not use a restraining order, if necessary? We did it in our church when a fist fight broke out between members when someone slapped a man's wife. The police were called in and the one at fault was given a restraining order for a period of time. That solved the problem. [/quote']

Thank you Pam. Good example of an appropriate action.

[phkrause]

I'm trying to be polite and your being sarcastic (sp) or trying to be something else not sure, but most definitely do not apperciate it at all. I know exactly what a Jew is, my father spent 5 years in a Nazi concentration camp, or should I say a christian/gentile concentration camp. This is the exact reason why Jews hate christians. There are many other reasons, but I'm not like you so I will not go into all of that. And if you think that I would ever go around and try to sell of EGWs Steps to Christ as Jewish you are really being something that I can't mention here. And while your at it why not the tell Messanic Jews that they are Christians. And by the way Jesus was a Jew not a Christian, is followers or those opposed to his followers called them that. And I'm not one of those idiot politicly correct people, I don't care one iota what label one puts on a Jew who follows Jesus. As far as I'm concerned they are Jews that follow Jesus, they have never converted to any christian religion, period. And next time trying reading his introduction for why he wrote the Complete Jewish Bible, so that you have an idea of what he is trying to do for Jews and christians alike. I'm even surprised that you can call yourself a christian at all.

Because if I were a person of very little faith I'd never want to be a christian, let alone a SDA christian. By the way thanks for your wonderful comments. And don't bother replying because I probably wont answer any of your posts.

pk

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is what pkrause said in post # 197821:

Quote:

The Jewish Bible I have is translated by David H. Stern. Here are a few links Gregory,

Sivartm sais:

Quote:

The NAME of the Bible is "The Complete Jewish Bible" and that is all that was included in the reference. Nobody said that it WAS Jewish (whether it was or not), the poster (who was not me, by the way) only cited the name of the Bible.

pkrause is quite clear. It was claimed to be a Jewish Bible. IT ws referencd in that context and in that post not by the title.

[Gregory Matthews]

Sivartm said:

Quote:

. . .my Jewishness is based on my acceptance of Christ and does not contradict it. If the Jewish religion is against Christ, though, we must get rid of the Old Testament, because it was written by Jews, who, by your definition, must have rejected Christ. Of course, then we'd have to get rid of Jesus, and that would pose a problem,. . .

A religion defines itself. The Christian religion has as its central feature acceptance of Christ as Saviour. The Jewish religion rdefines itself in its central feature as a rejection of Christ as Saviour.

If you do not understand that, you simply do not understand the issues that you discuss and you do not understand how Jewish people define their religion.

[Gregory Matthews]

I said:

Quote:

Jewish ethnic group: Judiasm is a religion that acknowledges seccular Jews. So called seccular Jews are accepted into the Jewish relilgion.

Sivartm than responded:

Quote:

Odd. Where's that in the Bible again? The Jewish religion is based on the Torah, which clearly says to worship God.

If you do not know that seccular Jews are accepted in Judiasm, you simply do not know and understand the Jewish religion.

[Gregory Matthews]

pkrause said:

Quote:

. . .my father spent 5 years in a Nazi concentration camp,. . .

You know your Father, I do not. If you say that he was a Jew, I accept that.

I am sorry for what he must have endured in a Nazi concentation camp.

Your Father is not the focus and the issue here.

[Gregory Matthews]

pkrause said:

Quote:

And if you think that I would ever go around and try to sell of EGWs Steps to Christ as Jewish you are really being something that I can't mention here. And while your at it why not the tell Messanic Jews that they are Christians.

Of course you would not sell Steps to Christ as a Jewish work.

By the Biblical defination, those who accept Christ as Saviour are Christian. That is what Messianic Jews do.

[Gregory Matthews]

pkrause said:

Quote:

And don't bother replying because I probably wont answer any of your posts.

To respond or not to respond is your choice just as it is my choice as to whether or not I respond to you.

By the way, I am actually not focused on responding to you. Actually, I am talking to the larger audience that is reading this thread. Your responses are giving me much to speak to the larger audience about.

So, I welcome your comments if you chose to make them. IF you do not, that is your choice.

Have a good day.

[Gregory Matthews]

It might be well at this point in time to provide a clear statement in regard to what Messianic Judiasm is all about. The following staement comes from: www.messianicjewishtruth.com

Quote:

Messianic Judaism is a movement that began in the 1800's, through the Presbyterian and Anglican churches, to convert Jews to Christianity. Overall, Christianity has throughout history had little success in converting Jews, other than forced conversions or conversions of Jews who were heavily assimilated or inter-married. Christianity has often been frustrated with Jewish refusal to convert. This frustration is probably best highlighted in something called the "Jewish Question." The "Jewish Question" used to be a common debate topic written about in Christian circles. The "Question" was essentially as follows: On one hand, Christianity is frustrated that the Jews will not convert and would like to to kill the Jews or somehow get rid of them. On the other hand, if they destroy the Jews, this will undermine Christianity, as Christianity claims to accept the Jewish Bible. So, what should Christianity do? This is the essence of much historical frustration of Christianity toward the Jews. The Messianic Jewish movement (originally known as the Hebrew Christian movement) is a movement that places the "clothes" of Judaism on the theology of Christianity, to make Christianity more readily accepted by the Jewish people. Currently, the Messianic Jewish movement is funded by Christian denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention, the Church of the Nazarene, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the Assemblies of God (Pentecostals) and many others.

Folks, Messianic Jews are Christian and not Jewish by religion.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, would you please get your head fixed! You do not have to bring people down to where you are all the time. For your information, I gave the verses just as they are in the bible--I did NOT change anything! Please do yourself and others a favor and look up the word "remember" in the dictionary.

You can't remember if you were not with Jesus when He first said it! If you want to believe otherwise--then that is your choice.

If you want it to say (read) that the Holy Spirit will cause you to remember what you have read before or what you have heard someone else say before, then that is NOT how I see this at all and you can't have any unity with everyone doing this.

[Dr. Rich]

Revelation 3:9 "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie---behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your fee, and to know that I have loved you [bondservants-144k]. Because you have kept the WORDS of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell upon the earth."

[Guest]

Richard, would you please get your head fixed! You do not have to bring people down to where you are all the time. For your information, I gave the verses just as they are in the bible--I did NOT change anything! Please do yourself and others a favor and look up the word "remember" in the dictionary.

You can't remember if you were not with Jesus when He first said it! If you want to believe otherwise--then that is your choice.

If you want it to say (read) that the Holy Spirit will cause you to remember what you have read before or what you have heard someone else say before, then that is NOT how I see this at all and you can't have any unity with everyone doing this.

Are you talking about way back on page two, where I pointed out that the texts you said are a test are not a test in any way shape or form?

Nor can they ever be, because they are promises. How do you turn a promise into a test? I don't know how that's done. I won't stoop to your level and say something about your head, but you should at least read the texts you are making claims about.

Jesus said if any man wants to do his will, he will be shown what the truth is. That is how the Holy Spirit can work with many different people and have them all on the same page.

But since you don't believe anybody has the Holy Spirit, it becomes pretty obvious that you don't, because the Bible is very plain about the fact the he will be freely given to those who ask in faith, and who seek to do God's will.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Go.......

[Dr. Rich]

I agree that what Jesus said was a promise--but only for the disciples because they heard it straight from Jesus and you didn't. The test are the words of Jesus only--ok?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Re: What to do about a couple of crazy people in our church.

This thread is becoming ironically funny...

[Guest]

I agree that what Jesus said was a promise--but only for the disciples because they heard it straight from Jesus and you didn't. The test are the words of Jesus only--ok?

Where is that in the Bible Rich, that what Jesus said to the disciples does not apply to us?

Here are some words that are contrary to the word of Rich:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus is God, is he not? He is the creator. JN 1:1-3, So when Jesus said "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,"

That would have to include the words he spoke to his disciples. Absolutely it would. So the exclusivness that you try to put on Jesus' words comes from you only. Not the Bible.

[Woody]

Quote:

Re: What to do about a couple of crazy people in our church.

This thread is becoming ironically funny...

Good Point Pam. Perhaps ... just perhaps ... there are more than a couple.

[Dr. Rich]

How absurd Richard!

[Guest]

What's absurd, Matthew 4:4?

What's absurd, is you saying the words of Jesus are exclusive and not for us. You can't show any scripture to that effect, so you say it's absurd. That's all you've got.

Come back when you can back something up with scripture. I can't afford to just take your word for anything.

[Dr. Rich]

What is absurd is to think that the Holy Spirit will cause YOU (anyone who was not an eyewitness) to remember what Jesus said when He was here on this earth. First of all, you were not an eyewitness so you would not be able to remember anything EVEN IF the Holy Spirit presented it to you. It would be the first time you heard it.

It is no wonder that Satan has such an easy time of deception! Why wasn't Saul/Paul sent to Peter or John by "The Voice" IF it was Jesus? Have not you ever thought of that before? I mean, who in the world of the followers of "THE WAY" was "Ananias"? He was alleged to be a devout man according to the law and a good Jew, but why him and not an eyewitness to Jesus? Something smells a little fishy here.

And no wonder there are so many crazy people out there believing in all sorts of things other than the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses! You want scripture? Then read what Jesus said.