Planey Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 JimBob, I was researching some material for my sermon this Sabbath upcoming (I was looking for a link I remember seeing to an article re Creation/Evolution - couldn't find it) when I checked this thread. Some kindly people had persuaded me to reconsider and actually deliver the sermon when I became discouraged by your continual denigration of the sermons you had heard in Adventist churches and even more your bitter denunciations of the scoundrels who masquerade as pastors and do not deliver messages which meet your ideas on homiletics. Well congratulations. At least you have had some success and there will be one less person to insult his hearers with a NFDMTTS. They will enjoy hearing a real preacher via the wonders of videotape. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Do you know, JimBob, that on Christmas Day we had no sermon in my church! We only had a short prayer at the beginning, and the STRAIGHT IN TO DRAMA!!! Would you believe it -- NO SERMON!! Well, to be truthful, the drama that our youth had written, and acted out -- 1 1/2 hours of it, mind you, was the best sermon that i have heard for a long time. I felt a lump in my throat as we stood, trumpets blaring, singing at the top of our voices, "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" It was the best sermon that I had ever seen and heard (and i didn't open my Bible once). Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Oh, I would surely believe it. Another testimony for the incompetent homiletics when a drama is superior to all of the sermons. And another testimony as to how one can get contaminated by the denominational approach of not inviting one to open the bible. I remember a well know GC ministerial director making a point at bringing out that one of the first things a pastor should do is invite the congregation to open their bibles.... AW but what does he know.??..he just is another person with some lame opinion..they just let him have that GC position because they felt sorry for him right?? He really didn't deserve the position. Any more challenges?? HUH? Would any ROM 8:7 churchians out there like to take a shot at this?? Maybe Jesus used parables because the Pharisees had so programmed the people to be hostile to the word...because they were too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 The reason why the youth are so into drama is that much of their life revolves around films and videos...and they are actor wannabes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Graeme, Here is a positive note to your post. My tirades/rants have made you sensitive to desiring top notch quality presentations to the congregation. I think God is well pleased with that attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> In case you are not clearly tuned into this RANT..... GUESS WHAT IS WORSE THAN A NFDMTTS?????? NO SERMON AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> You know what, JimBob... One of these days (if I can drag myself out of bed early enough on Sunday, the only day of the week I don't have to set my alarm clock) I'm going to go to the local Quaker Meeting. And I will sit there in silence and meditate on God and listen joyfully to the NO SERMON. And if the Holy Spirit moves someone to say something, they will stand up and say it, and I will not waste time or mental energy worrying about whether it is topical or how many Bible texts are used or whether it contains non-fat dry milk. I'd love to take you along too, if you want to come. aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 8, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: GUESS WHAT IS WORSE THAN A NFDMTTS?????? My answer - psychobabble. You tend to get psychobabble sermons from a pastor who is also a trained counsellor. Your texts are few, your examples of people with messed-up lives and minds are many, sometimes to the point where one is glad one's children are grown and don't have to be introduced to the topic of rape for the first time in their lives through a Sabbath sermon. Through all this I have learned how important it is NOT to depend on the pastor to deliver your weekly bread. We have to be able to feed ourselves, with the ever-present Holy Spirit guiding our thoughts and understanding. We have to use our feet with wisdom and follow them to a church where God's word is delivered and where His love is evident in those who worship. Some of my better worship experiences have actually been while sitting in the pew while psychobabble sermons were being delivered. IMO No Sermon At All is better than a psychobabble sermon where one's mind is taken from the pure things of God to the filthy things below. I open my Bible and meditate on it instead, and my mind is taken far away from what may have been assaulting my ears and my thoughts. LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 JimBob, once again, you have missed the whole point of my post. The drama WAS the story of of Christ's arrival in this world. It brought the Scripture to life. It showed in a very real way the REASON for His coming, and the price the God was willing to pay just so that we could have the CHOICE of obedience or not. and it took us right through to the ultimate sacrifice that heaven made. It was, in fact, FAR MORE EFFECTUAL than listening to the READING, or PREACHING of Scripture -- it touched ALL OF OUR SENSES, in the manner that Christ taught -- by stories, illustrations, parables. Of course, I didn't expect you to approve. It wasn't a sermon, therefore it wouldn't have touched your heart, whatever the message. Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Quote: GUESS WHAT IS WORSE THAN A NFDMTTS?????? My answer - psychobabble. You tend to get psychobabble sermons from a pastor who is also a trained counsellor. Your texts are few, your examples of people with messed-up lives and minds are many, ... LynnDel, you must be very blessed to have been able to live your life without becoming "messed up" in some way, having a messed up mind or a messed up life. I wonder if you have any idea how your words sound to those of us not so fortunate. I realize you have just recently lost your husband so I am highly reticent to lay any burden upon you whatsoever, but could you stop a moment and imagine how it would sound to you to hear someone complain about having to listen to people who preached using examples of grieving widows because they didn't want their children to be exposed to the raw concept of death from the Sabbath sermon? I'm so terribly sorry we messed up people with messed up minds and messed up lives have to sully your pristine church with our muddy feet. We were only looking for Jesus, and someone told us we could find Him here. Maybe they were wrong. Quote: sometimes to the point where one is glad one's children are grown and don't have to be introduced to the topic of rape for the first time in their lives through a Sabbath sermon. Better there than through experience. I have to say I feel really disappointed to read this from you. You usually have such uplifting and encouraging things to share, and this sounds so bitter and nasty, cutting and cruel. I don't know you well at all, but this isn't like the LynnDel I've seen on this forum. Quote: IMO No Sermon At All is better than a psychobabble sermon where one's mind is taken from the pure things of God to the filthy things below. I open my Bible and meditate on it instead, and my mind is taken far away from what may have been assaulting my ears and my thoughts. I'm glad there are pastors out there who aren't afraid to make the blissfully unaware cognizant of the harsh realities of the world we live in. I don't know who you've listened to but I can say I've never sat through a "psychobabble" sermon talking about the pain that people have suffered in various situations that did not speak of finding hope and healing in Christ, that did not offer some comfort in His Love, that did not elevate the mind to Him and call upon us congregants to be a little more LIKE HIM, ultimately. Knowing what our pew-mates might have had to live through could help us become more compassionate and understanding toward them. Then again, maybe it won't. God be merciful to me a sinner. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: JimBob, once again, you have missed the whole point of my post. The drama WAS the story of of Christ's arrival in this world. It brought the Scripture to life. It showed in a very real way the REASON for His coming, and the price the God was willing to pay just so that we could have the CHOICE of obedience or not. and it took us right through to the ultimate sacrifice that heaven made. It was, in fact, FAR MORE EFFECTUAL than listening to the READING, or PREACHING of Scripture -- it touched ALL OF OUR SENSES, in the manner that Christ taught -- by stories, illustrations, parables. Of course, I didn't expect you to approve. It wasn't a sermon, therefore it wouldn't have touched your heart, whatever the message. Beryl, I think it sounds WONDERFUL! Do you know the very first positive influence on my life for Christ came not from church but from seeing an onstage live production of "Godspell" -- a contemporary musical from the 1970s that brought the gospel story to life. It made Jesus REAL to me, made the disciples, the whole thing, REAL in a way church never had. I bought my first New Testament after that and read all four gospels -- at the age of 8 or 9. I didn't surrender my life to Christ at that point because I didn't understand how to do that or what that meant, but had that option been available and accessible to me through a truth-teaching church and wise parents and teachers who would nurture that flame, I just might have. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 First, I need to tie me kangaroo down, sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Of course, I didn't expect you to approve. It wasn't a sermon, therefore it wouldn't have touched your heart, whatever the message. Heart? Did I ever post that I had a heart? I am a neo TINMAN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: It was, in fact, FAR MORE EFFECTUAL than listening to the READING, or PREACHING of Scripture -- it touched ALL OF OUR SENSES, in the manner that Christ taught -- by stories, illustrations, parables. Well then....someone needs to start a campaign to march on Silver Springs to initiate drama only worship services.. Why should the congregations have anything less than the best??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 8, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2005 Re: "Why should the congregations have anything less than the best???" People are different. They are at different stages of thier Christian life and journey. They need different things. Sermons are very important. Some SDA pastors to not do well in preaching. Some congregations are not fed well. Drama, music, and more can reach an individual with the message of Christ, and all can have a place in the Sabbath service. At times, it is appropriate to replace the sermon with such. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Did I ever post that I had a heart? I am a neo TINMAN. I thought that was IRON MAN. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Well then....someone needs to start a campaign to march on Silver Springs to initiate drama only worship services.. Why should the congregations have anything less than the best??? I wouldn't take it that far. Having nothing but drama week after week would get old MIGHTY fast. It would become superficial and likely get stale and burned out. We'd have the drama equivalent of NFDMTTS! Once in awhile it's great for waking up and shaking up, for engaging us wholly. But anything repeated often and frequently is in danger and at risk of burnout and staleness. Hence NFDMTTS. Hence a plethora of ills. Have you dropped in on our Desire of Ages study? We've been talking of this a bit in Chapter 5. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Either way, give him some synthetic oil and send him off to Oz! (Sorry Aussies.) [justhadtojumpinandsaysomething]JB7: really, I do like you, I just had to comment on the whole neo thing...[/justhadtojumpinandsaysomething] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Any non apathetic, non intimidated, brave souls out there? How about your reaction or input. Am I supposed to just accept this as part of the SDA status quo? Am I supposed to just let this slide without any comment? In a 75 minute long worship service...that has 1. announcements 2. an opening HYMN 3. [:"red"]scripture reading[/] 4. [:"red"]children's story [/] 5. children taking their offering 6. worship service prayer 7. a regular offering 8. 2 praise songs 9. [:"red"]ordinance of humility[/] 10. [:"red"]the communion ceremony with bread and juice and 2 prayers that go with it[/] 11. closing hymn Is it unrealistic to expect a message from GOD'S WORD?? You mean your congregation does not read from the Bible, or have a Biblical solid moral(children's story), during the highlighted activities? /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 *tacking on* Did you ever think that maybe a NFDMTTS sermon was given to the pastor by the Holy Spirit at the direction of God for one specific person sitting in the pews that day? Since God speaks to a soul at its level of understanding; maybe we shouldnt scoff at any sermon topic, but accept that Gods Word will become clear for someone that day. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: *tacking on* Did you ever think that maybe a NFDMTTS sermon was given to the pastor by the Holy Spirit at the direction of God for one specific person sitting in the pews that day? Since God speaks to a soul at its level of understanding; maybe we shouldnt scoff at any sermon topic, but accept that Gods Word will become clear for someone that day. I will use this post to clarify something...and Nico hit upon it a little. I confront TRENDS. When what is heard is USUALLY the same thing sabbath after sabbath in quality..or lack of it really, this is detrimental to the spiritual growth of the listeners and the result is increase in carnality/worldliness/the flesh. Have a drama presentation...if I was pastor..I would allow one as often as every LEAP YEAR Have a topical sermon..even a NFDMTTS once a generation My rant is about DIMINUTION of SCRIPTURE EXPOSURE. A trend of NFDMTTS minimize scripture exposure and maximizes filler and fluff.. There are 30,000+ verses in the bible and most congregations have never even heard much of what the bible has to say ...never mind be taught the principles of the verses. This is the the result of the approach used by most pastors--- topical sermons..the ones where they first have a topic/theme in mind as they troubleshoot an issue/conflict/problem involving someone or some issue in the church or Christendom in general and they use a verse or small passage to springboard or as a launching platform to diagnose and address the issue. Many pastors spend most of their career doing so. When one goes through scripture in an exegetical expository approach and unpack the verses...many topics, issues and principles come out and it is like eating spiritual whole wheat bread instead of the bleached white store bought Wonder bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Either way, give him some synthetic oil and send him off to Oz! (Sorry Aussies.) [justhadtojumpinandsaysomething]JB7: really, I do like you, I just had to comment on the whole neo thing...[/justhadtojumpinandsaysomething] Good, you understood my post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 JimBob, I am not saying that drama is better than sermons in general. I have never yet listened to a sermon -- topical, tropical, or any other ..opical -- that has not had a message in it for those who choose to listen and find God speaking to their heart. Matthew 11:15. Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2005 Dear Nico, I am surprised at your response to me, because the feelings you ascribe to me are neither in my heart nor in the words which I wrote. For that I take full responsibility, because my humble efforts at saying what I meant were too concise and could be misunderstood by those who have had experiences and sufferings such as yours. Were you to have heard the sermons I heard and experienced the cumulative effect, perhaps you would not have been so quick to color my thoughts from your crayon box. I admit I overgeneralized when I painted all preachers having training in counseling with a psychobabble brush, and for that I apologize. I did not explain the extent to which the sinful, suffering life has on accasion been dwelt upon in greater detail than the saved life; I did not explain the extent to which reliance on psychology has on occasion tended to be placed higher than reliance on God and His word. I did not explain that, on the other hand, I have heard sermons that rightly address all these problems and how God's forgiveness and power promises hope to those with all kinds of struggles. It is the over-reliance on psychology and the under-reliance on God's word that concerns me. That was my point, likely not well stated either then or now. I usually don't like to defend myself in exchanges such as this, for who besides me cares? I offer this as a little explanation, for better or for worse. LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2005 Yay for tropical sermons! Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2005 I think I'd like a tropical sermon. How far does one have to fly to get to one? LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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