Interesting email I received

[Guest]

And a time to kill....

[bonnie]

So, no-one has really answered my question, probably because it's inconvenient and awkward. What did Jesus say?

Maybe you could tell us what Jesus would say about justice for those that commit thousands of murders.

Even tho they can be forgiven it does not prevent "the reaping of what they have sown"

Nor does the passing a legal judgment or our civil laws deal with repentance.

That is between them and God.

[Bravus]

Matthew 5:

Quote:

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It continues to astonish me how easily those who claim to be followers of Jesus are able to somehow ignore or explain away his own words and his own high standards for us.

[bonnie]

Matthew 5:

Quote:

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It continues to astonish me how easily those who claim to be followers of Jesus are able to somehow ignore or explain away his own words and his own high standards for us.

What is it you find astonishing?

The bringing to trial individuals that do what the terrorists have done?

Or do you believe that forgiveness cancels every consequence? I don't.

Or what seems like to some of us the total frustration in that e-mail?

If you think it is going against God's instruction to us please point me to the chapter where it says those like the terrorists should not be held accountable.

[Guest]

Of course I love the terrorists Bravus, and I want them all to convert to Christianity. But as it stands right now, they hate and want to kill all of Jesus' followers. So, unless they convert and repent they are going to be lost. In which case God is going to burn them up root and branch.

So loving them as much as I do doesn't really do them any good unless I run into one of them on the street, and am able to convert him without him killing me...

I hope this helps.

[there buster]

Quote:

It continues to astonish me how easily those who claim to be followers of Jesus are able to somehow ignore or explain away his own words and his own high standards for us.

It continues to astonish me how much "God-talk" is used to justify silly thinking. Bad exegesis begets bad theology.

The verses quoted come from the Sermon on the Mount. That is about Kingdom Life, not about foreign policy.

There is no argument that Jesus loves his enemies. And yet we have this passage (also from the Bible, in case there is doubt). Rev 16:3

The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.

4The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

"You are just in these judgments,

you who are and who were, the Holy One,

because you have so judged;

6for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

Apparently, loving one's enemies is not inconsistent with holding them to account. Or does someone wish to defend the notion that God is inconsistent?

The left is fond of the pacifist Jesus, but they do so at the cost of ignoring not only context, as in the citations about loving enemies, but also by ignoring his 'inconvenient' teachings.

So we hear a lot of ""for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. " Matt 26:52. But rarely do we hear about Luke 22:36 "He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.'"

Circumstances, context, alter the application of principle. Simplistic thinking is easy, but wrong, and ultimately dangerous.

[Guest]

Amen

[Guest]

The texts are not in conflict with each other. They are both true. If you see them as being in conflict, then it is you who are wrong, and you should continue to prayerfully study until you can reconcile the two.

[Neil D]

Cowboys and Muslims

Three strangers strike up a conversation in the airport passenger lounge in Bozeman, Montana, awaiting their flights.

One is an American Indian passing through from Lame Deer. Another is a cowboy on his way to Billings for a livestock show, and the third passenger is a fundamentalist Arab student, newly arrived at Montana State University from the Middle East.

Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon, the two Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout, radical Muslim and the conversation falls into an uneasy lull.

The cowboy leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table, and tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face. The wind outside is blowing tumbleweeds around, and the old windsock is flapping, but still no plane comes.

Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and softly he speaks, “At one time here, my people were many, but sadly, now we are few.”

The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans forward, “Once my people were few,” he sneers, “and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?”

The Montana cowboy shifts his toothpick to one side of his mouth and from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a drawl, “That’s ‘cause we ain’t played cowboys and Muslims yet, but I do believe it’s a-comin.”

[Guest]

Good one.

[SivartM]

When I posted my questions, I wasn't making a statement, I was thinking out loud. I wasn't saying, "Let's just let them get away with it! Yaaay!"

Anyway...

So in the seven last plagues, God will be judging those who persecute us. Great. Wouldn't that mean that it's not our place to judge? I certainly wouldn't use that passage as justification for shooting radical Muslims left and right.

I think the most important question is, who is more powerful, God or human forces? Who should we depend on for justice? Who should we depend on for protection? Who should we allow to judge? What is more powerful, prayer or a gun? When was the last time you prayed for a terrorist?

[Guest]

I certainly wouldn't use that passage as justification for shooting radical Muslims left and right.

[Woody]

Quote:

It continues to astonish me how much "God-talk" is used to justify silly thinking. Bad exegesis begets bad theology.

This I certainly have to agree with.

[bonnie]

Quote:

When I posted my questions, I wasn't making a statement, I was thinking out loud. I wasn't saying, "Let's just let them get away with it! Yaaay!"

To prevent them from getting away with it,there are those that have to make that decision or to pass judgement

Quote:

So in the seven last plagues, God will be judging those who persecute us. Great. Wouldn't that mean that it's not our place to judge? I certainly wouldn't use that passage as justification for shooting radical Muslims left and right.

I don't think to many took seriously the statement to just shoot them.

Judgments were passed on Ted Bundy,Charles Manson,Jeffry Dahlmer and the Green River serial killer. We should have left that to God. Witnesses,juries,and judge passed judgement on these men.If judgment cannot be passed they should be allowed to roam free instead of executed orimprisoned for life

Quote:

I think the most important question is, who is more powerful, God or human forces? Who should we depend on for justice? Who should we depend on for protection? Who should we allow to judge? What is more powerful, prayer or a gun? When was the last time you prayed for a terrorist?

When was the last time you prayed for the thousands of innocent victims?Those that have died because radical Islam

decided they did not like the culture of the US.

"Who should we depend on for protection"

We need to get rid of the PO and all those that will come to your aid if attacked.

You and they are passing judgment by requesting help from those who may end up killing another on your behalf.

Is prayer more powerful than a swat team,YUP

You cannot "allow" anyone to judge.Doing so means you are judging.

I am guessing but would not be afraid to bet that most that have lost their lives at the deliberate hand of another has prayed for protection.

The fact they are no dead means what? Did God not see them worthy of protection? Didn't he hear the prayers? Maybe they did not pray right.

[Woody]

Quote:

We need to get rid of the PO

Did you mean BO ?

[bonnie]

Quote:

We need to get rid of the PO

Did you mean BO ?

No,I meant PO Police officers. If any is being attacked and threatened they know if they get a chance to call for help,the PO will come and possibly shoot and kill someone.

That is not their judgment to make as God is more powerful

[phkrause]

I do agree with most, they definitely need to pay for there deeds. And as far as judging, I think that we can judge them for what they did, but not there hearts and there reasoning. God will judge if they are worthy for heaven and that will be his right not ours. Obviously they need to accept Jesus, but again here that is only God's realm of authorty. Yes what would Jesus have to say if someone asked? I believe just like his answer to the pharisee's, what belongs to ceasar is his and what belongs to God is his. I Jesus would say to love them, but they are guilty here on earth and need to pay for what they've done here on earth according to your laws!

pk

[bonnie]

I do agree with most, they definitely need to pay for there deeds. And as far as judging, I think that we can judge them for what they did, but not there hearts and there reasoning. God will judge if they are worthy for heaven and that will be his right not ours. Obviously they need to accept Jesus, but again here that is only God's realm of authorty. Yes what would Jesus have to say if someone asked? I believe just like his answer to the pharisee's, what belongs to ceasar is his and what belongs to God is his. I Jesus would say to love them, but they are guilty here on earth and need to pay for what they've done here on earth according to your laws!

pk

I do believe that is the stand you take consistently . Many tho seem to equate judging what they did with determining their salvation.

Jesus would say to love them, but they are guilty here on earth and need to pay for what they've done here on earth according to your laws!

Forgiveness translates for many "lack of consequences"

There was a woman executed in Texas some years ago. From watching and listening to many interviews over the years from

her I believe without a doubt she repented and gave her heart to God,but she was not pardoned. She committed some horrible vicious acts resulting in the murder of more than one I believe.

I held out hope till they said it was now over, that her death sentence would be commuted.

Her conversion and forgiveness by God did not waive her consequences.

[Guest]

Tis true.

[SivartM]

If we can't count on God to protect us from terrorists, why bother praying for protection at all, since He may or may not answer?

I think that the government should punish lawbreakers. My problem is Christians trusting in the government more than God for protection, and wanting to get revenge themselves.

Anyway, this conversation is making me remember why I don't like this section of the forum (or anywhere where politics are discussed). Let me just summarize by saying that I disagree with the person who wrote this letter: I do care. And if anyone doesn't care, then I guess you'll just keep missing out until you find out that none of us are any better than the terrorists.

[Guest]

Siv, you interupted my study on justification by faith.

[Guest]

Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

“Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax.”

Koran 9:29

This is what many of our enemies believe about the rest of the worlds population:

“Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191

“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123

“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Koran 9:5

“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85

“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30

“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33

“The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque.” Koran 9:28

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19

“Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” Koran 47:4

“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65

“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28

“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12

“Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60

[bonnie]

If we can't count on God to protect us from terrorists, why bother praying for protection at all, since He may or may not answer?

I think that the government should punish lawbreakers. My problem is Christians trusting in the government more than God for protection, and wanting to get revenge themselves.

Anyway, this conversation is making me remember why I don't like this section of the forum (or anywhere where politics are discussed). Let me just summarize by saying that I disagree with the person who wrote this letter: I do care. And if anyone doesn't care, then I guess you'll just keep missing out until you find out that none of us are any better than the terrorists.

Who was speaking of getting revenge.You have made a leap.

They deserve consequences for what they did,no matter how they dislike our lifestyle.We are not obligated to tailor the lifestyle of the US following radical muslim dictates.

[Bravus]

1. The text there buster quoted from Revelation was about *God's* judgement, not human judgement. Not parallel at all.

2. I never argued against justice, or even against any particular foreign policy settings or actions. The original letter argued for a lack of justice, but my main point was about Jesus injunction to love our enemies. I never mentioned pacificism or anything like it.

Read the original letter, read Matthew 5, figure out whether the letter exemplifies Christ's attitudes. Its a simple exercise for the unclouded mind.

Bringing the specific perpetrators of specific crimes to justice is completely appropriate. Damning entire cultures based on the actions of a few extremists is not.

[Guest]

Do you think there are only a few?