"Keeping the Christ in Christmas"

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The Christmas Tree comes from a pre-Christian tradition in Germany, and is called the Yule Tree. A roaring fire is often shown at Christmas. A roaring fire is a great way to celebrate Christmas, but the Yule log is really a Wiccan tradition. The Yule log is a traditional representation of the rebirth of the God by the Goddess.

Wiccans celebrate Christmas in many of the traditional ways. Many of them meet and stand in a circle, cast the four directions and give thanks to The Goddess. Then they cast spells and light candles of various colours for health, happiness, safety and just about every other worthy thing. Then they give each other gifts.

Wicca is a fairly recent take on paganism. The Yule log is not a Wiccan tradition. It's Nordic. Wiccans celebrate the Winter Solstice (Yule), seldom celebrating Christmas.

[Woody]

Just because the pagans wants to do something on a particular date ... should not stop Christians from doing whatever they want on a particular day. The pagans do NOT own Dec.25 th

[Guest]

They had it first.

[Woody]

I am not so sure of that ... but really don't care. Either way ... it is our responsibility to Christianize it.

[SivartM]

Why on earth did I start a thread about Christmas on an Adventist forum? I should have just chuckled with Jesus about my joke and gone on with life...

[phkrause]

Why on earth did I start a thread about Christmas on an Adventist forum? I should have just chuckled with Jesus about my joke and gone on with life...

Good one Sivart. Some just like to complain about anything. They seem to have no joy whatsoever. Don't take it personal. It comes down to choice. God created us with the ability to choose. And he knows our hearts. If we choose to celebrate his birthday, he knows if we really mean it or not. If he wanted us to know when he was born, he would have. We can choose to let the day be what we want it to be. We can make it pagan or we can make it spiritual and honor our Lord and Savior.

pk

[teresaq]

Why on earth did I start a thread about Christmas on an Adventist forum? I should have just chuckled with Jesus about my joke and gone on with life...

silly me!!

i thought it had to do more with having "Christ" in "christ"ians !! :)

[GreatLakesGramma]

Why on earth did I start a thread about Christmas on an Adventist forum? I should have just chuckled with Jesus about my joke and gone on with life...

Live and learn, Sivart. You'll know better next year, right?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Why on earth did I start a thread about Christmas on an Adventist forum? I should have just chuckled with Jesus about my joke and gone on with life...

Good one Sivart. Some just like to complain about anything. They seem to have no joy whatsoever. Don't take it personal. It comes down to choice. God created us with the ability to choose. And he knows our hearts. If we choose to celebrate his birthday, he knows if we really mean it or not. If he wanted us to know when he was born, he would have. We can choose to let the day be what we want it to be. We can make it pagan or we can make it spiritual and honor our Lord and Savior.

pk

it cant be all that "spiritual" or special since i, and countless others, were born on that day, or so i think. :)

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Good one Sivart. Some just like to complain about anything. They seem to have no joy whatsoever. Don't take it personal. It comes down to choice. God created us with the ability to choose. And he knows our hearts. If we choose to celebrate his birthday' date=' he knows if we really mean it or not. If he wanted us to know when he was born, he would have. We can choose to let the day be what we want it to be. We can make it pagan or we can make it spiritual and honor our Lord and Savior.

pk [/quote']it cant be all that "spiritual" or special since i, and countless others, were born on that day, or so i think.

Well than teresaq you are in good company.

Even though we know its not the day he was born, you can still say that you were born on the same day as Jesus, but just a few thousand years later, and be proud.

pk

[bonnie]

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]Bonnie, .I'm sorry to hear of your sisters, thats a terrible tragedy.I'm in college to get a masters degree in substance abuse counseling, I pray I can make a difference with God's help.

Thank you. The point in even mentioning it is any holiday can be an excuse to drink to excess.Christmas does not cause drinking anymore than Memorial day does

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Because you don't associate Christmas with drinking means zilch. ask a million drunks if they do.

A million drunks would be just as drunk without christmas.

To me because people may drink to much on that day has nothing whatsoever to do with christmas being a pagan holiday.

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If you ask a hundred liquor stores when they make their biggest sales, it will be the current week, which is now.

I doubt it can out do New Years Eve. A drunk is not going to drink more because it is christmas

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Here we get into problems.No one said anything about your morality, nor was it implied. I have seldom in my life seen a stretch of this magnitude. You have not said if you drink or not. I'm assuming, and have assumed you do not, unless you tell me different.

No I don't drink.

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Another wild stretch. What are you thinking? Are you not able to discern when someone is making general statements about society, not to you or your family?

General statements about what society does is immaterial to the fact that I or anyone else celebrates christmas.

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Heres another one. You take a general comment I made that has nothing to do with your kids, and apply it to them specifically. I Just don't know what to say. Nothing is best I think, I'm not even going to attempt to figure this out.

Go back and reread how it comes across.

We have always celebrated christmas understanding that Christ was not born on the 25th of Dec,knowing that there are those that shun it because of what they see the roots are of christmas.

We celebrate two holidays more than any other.One is the 4th of July.I have no control over those that drink to excess nor will their behavior influence mine.

It is am all day affair for our family,one that has provided many great memories and family closeness. Society and how they do things is not my problem.

Christmas is another we celebrate obviously. That does not make the day holy to me.It is a wonderful family time,one we look forward to all year long.We don't invite Santa,we don't buy and buy making it all about material things.

[teresaq]

Well than teresaq you are in good company.

Even though we know its not the day he was born, you can still say that you were born on the same day as Jesus, but just a few thousand years later, and be proud.

i know you meant that in the best way but i would kill all pride in myself, and i certainly couldnt accept "credit" for something i had nothing to do with. hope you understand my point. :)

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Well than teresaq you are in good company.

Even though we know its not the day he was born, you can still say that you were born on the same day as Jesus, but just a few thousand years later, and be proud.

i know you meant that in the best way but i would kill all pride in myself, and i certainly couldnt accept "credit" for something i had nothing to do with. hope you understand my point.

Yes I do. :)

pk

[bonnie]

Quote:

Paganism is a term that refers collectively to the Indigenous, pre-Christian cultures and spiritual traditions of Europe, some of which have survived into the present, while others are being reconstructed or revived in modern times. In fact, Pagans were represented at the recentParliament of the World's Religions.

I can think of others that might frighten me more than a pagan.

Quote:

The most important date in the festive season for Pagans is the winter solstice which always takes place around December 21. CalledYule, it is one of the traditional Celtic fire festivals and marks the return of the light after the longest night of the year.

Pagans will celebrate their "religion" and traditions with or without my family celebrating christmas.

Using my fireplace at anytime is not a reflection of a fire festival. Burning my fireplace at christmas time is nothing but burning my fireplace,PERIOD.I really don't care if the pagans call it Yule.

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The term of Pagan covers Wiccans, followers of the Northern Tradition who base their beliefs on Norse and old northern European beliefs, and also Druidism.[/quote[

You claim I am making some leaps in what you say. Do you think because we celebrate christmas we are ignorant of Pagans etc.

The occasion of Christmas falling on 25 December was in fact a hijacking of a Roman Festival, that of Sol Invictus, the celebration of the Sun. Christ was called the Son of Justice, so the early Church moved the feast of the Epiphany (manifestation of God) to 25 December to celebrate the birth of the Son of Justice.

Millions have hijacked the Sabbath and that has nothing to do with me either.They have made it a work and their own pleasure day,so what. I don't.

Again,I am well aware as most of us are that Christ was not born on Dec 25th.Nor is the day considered holy.

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The Christmas Tree comes from a pre-Christian tradition in Germany, and is called the Yule Tree. A roaring fire is often shown at Christmas. A roaring fire is a great way to celebrate Christmas, but the Yule log is really a Wiccan tradition. The Yule log is a traditional representation of the rebirth of the God by the Goddess.

What someone else calls a roaring fire in my fireplace,I could not care less. I don't care what some other tradition is for my burning fireplace.

My fireplace does not signify...traditional representation of the rebirth of the God by the Goddess.

It is a fireplace and I burn logs in my fireplace,and at Christmas as well. So what?

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Wiccans celebrate Christmas in many of the traditional ways. Many of them meet and stand in a circle, cast the four directions and give thanks to The Goddess. Then they cast spells and light candles of various colours for health, happiness, safety and just about every other worthy thing. Then they give each other gifts.

Wiccans are free to do as they choose about celebrating christmas.Let them stand in a circle and cast their spells.I am sure Christmas is not the only day they choose to do that.

Nothing you have posted reflects our families celebration of Christmas.

They can light as many candles as they choose. Let them give each other gifts as frequently as they choose to.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Steve B

The Christmas Tree comes from a pre-Christian tradition in Germany, and is called the Yule Tree. A roaring fire is often shown at Christmas. A roaring fire is a great way to celebrate Christmas, but the Yule log is really a Wiccan tradition. The Yule log is a traditional representation of the rebirth of the God by the Goddess.

Wiccans celebrate Christmas in many of the traditional ways. Many of them meet and stand in a circle, cast the four directions and give thanks to The Goddess. Then they cast spells and light candles of various colours for health, happiness, safety and just about every other worthy thing. Then they give each other gifts.

Wicca is a fairly recent take on paganism. The Yule log is not a Wiccan tradition. It's Nordic. Wiccans celebrate the Winter Solstice (Yule), seldom celebrating Christmas.

They are Nordic Wiccans

[LifeHiscost]

1. The phrase "keep the Christ in Christmas" always makes me think...

2. Why aren't we more concerned about keeping the Christ in Christians? At least the Bible actually talks about that.

#1 probably has something to do with the belief that visual accouterments have something to do with personal goals of correct deportment.

#2 I think much of the Christian community is highly interested in keeping Christ in Christians___other Christians. I hope that's too cynical a statement. I'm not proud that I have the thought in my own head.

"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person" 1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

Joy!

[LifeHiscost]

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses are correct upon this view.

Jehovahs Witness do not accept Jesus Christ as Creator and wonder why all the fuss about Him. I'm not even sure that they receive Him as Savior. I'm speaking from my personal knowledge

of a couple of JWs

They also do not accept the Holy Spirit as a person. Since no one comes to the Father except through Jesus, I'm unsure how they can be expected to understand any truth. But of course that would not exclude them from being reached by the Father as He reaches the atheist and others that are prayed for in intercessory prayer.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 NKJV

Joy!

[LifeHiscost]

Why on earth did I start a thread about Christmas on an Adventist forum? I should have just chuckled with Jesus about my joke and gone on with life...

I think the next term is; Good grief!

Joy!

[Kevin H]

i reject the holiday of Christmas and I'm a 7th day adventist. The birth of Jesus does not have anything to do with it. It was started in 324 AD, from the paganism that preformed the Romish church. As a winter solstice celebration.

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses are correct upon this view. Just because pagans said 1800 years ago to make it a holy-day does not mean I will. If we love Jesus we will worship Him is Spirit and in truth. Christmas day is not valid, but I don't knock those who see otherwise.

I'm sorry Steve, but as I have been posting here since I learned about this in either 2001, 2002 or 2003, the information that you have that Chrsitmas was started in the 4th century and is from paganism is out of date history. We get the date of December 25 from Jewish legend (maybe not any more accurate, but comes from Judiasm not from Paganism) that Isaac was conseved on Passover, born in mid to late December and that Abraham took him to sacrifice him on Mt. Moriah on Passover. That he was conseved and suposed to die on passover. (a reference I heard on the History channel, but I'm not sure if it was just a misunderstanding of the above information, was that Jewish tradition was that Prophets were killed on the anniversery day of their conseption)

Far from December 25 becoming Christmas in 324 AD, the church start to see December 25 as the birth of Jesus in the third century AD, and starting the second century, based on the Jewish legend that Isaac was conseved on Passover, and taken to Mt. Moriah on Passover, so the church said that Isaac was a foreshadowing of Jesus, that Jesus was also conseved on Passover and died on passover and was better than Isaac as Jesus was the fulfillment of the true sacrifice, and as the church changed from the Jewish to Roman Calender, Passover was on March 25 in the western synogogues and the western church started cellebrating the feast of the annunciation since the second century AD. They believed it was paganism to celebrate someone birth, so did not focus on the birth of Jesus, but by the next century they added 9 months to March 25 and saw the birth of Jesus on December 25. So this was a full century before 324 AD, based on a feast in the church 200 years older than 324 AD, and based from ancient Hebrew tradition.

Now I won't say that the pagan celebration of December 25 did not make the holiday even bigger, but rather than paganism being where December 25 came from, it was a date that the two had in common.

Besided, the feasts in the Bible: Pasover, First Fruits, the day of Atonement etc. and even the Investigative Judgment was kept by the Canaanites years before Abraham was born. They were the pagan feasts of the land based on the agracultural cycle.

The Day of Atonment and Passover are pagan in orgin, December 25 is Hebrew tradition in orgin.

[Kevin H]

By the way, this is also the season of Hanakkah, and John connects the raising of Lazarus to Hanakkah. This is a time of the year that family is very important. Yet there are some sad tables where there are loved ones sepperated from distance or death. Jesus picked this time of year to tell us that we have a hope of a grand reunion with our loved ones! If you don't want to cellebrate the birth of the one who is the resurection and the life, at least FOLLOW THE BIBLE and use this season to think about the story of Lazarus, the importance of family and the hope of time cellebrating with family in Heaven!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses are correct upon this view.

Jehovahs Witness do not accept Jesus Christ as Creator and wonder why all the fuss about Him. I'm not even sure that they receive Him as Savior.

They do accept Christ as the one through whom Jehovah created the world. But they do not consider Christ as the co-Creator. They believe He was the first creature created by Jehovah and that He made Christ for the purpose of dying. When He was on earth, He was nothing but a human being. For them it was not a divine being who died on the cross but merely a perfect man. He received divinity and immortality as a result of His obedience to the Father.

They do accept Jesus Christ as Savior but only because He was sent here by Jehovah, the primary Savior. Christ is always viewed by Jehovah Witnesses as inferior to the Father, who is the Almighty. For them Christ is "a god," and the Son of God, but never God.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I just read this in Temperance, by Ellen White:

Quote:

Intemperance Increased by Holidays.--Drunkenness, rioting, violence, crime, murder, come as the result of man selling his reason. The numerous holidays increase the evils of intemperance. These holidays are no help to morality or to religion. On them men spend in drink the money that should be used to supply the necessities of their families; and the liquor sellers reap their harvest. {Te 30.1}

When drink is in, reason is out. This is the hour and power of darkness, when all crime becomes possible, and the whole human machinery is controlled by a power from beneath, when soul and body are brought under the control of passion. And what can stay this passion? What can hinder it? These souls have no certain anchorage. Holidays are leading them on to temptation; for on a holiday many think that it is their privilege, because it is a holiday, to do as they please. --Manuscript 17, 1898. Temperance, p. 30.

[Kevin H]

Oh Steve, I want to clearify that I'm not trying to convince you to keep December 25, If the time to celebrate the birth of Jesus was important as Mrs. White said it would be revealed in scripture. I tend to lean towards the Feast of Tabernacals, but even then I am not convinced, and years ago met an older woman who had an Old Testament text that she said points to around and on Dec 25 (depending on how the Jewish and our calender happened to over lap) but I did not write down the text nor study it out.

What my post was pointing towards is that we now know that December 25 was seen as the birth of Jesus from before the 4th century and is built on Jewish tradition that Isaac was born around that time (depending on how the Jewish and our callenders overlapped) and the second century church wanting to make Isaac's birth a prefigure of Jesus' birth with Jesus being even greater than Isaac. This does not make Dec. 25 any more the birt of Jesus. I don't know how Judaism picked Passover for the conseption and visit to Mt. Moriah. And I'm sure that when 324 AD came around the interest in December 25 for both of them put more emphessass on the date and celebration (as originally the Christians did not put much emphesis on brithdays and the big celebration was March 25's Feast of the Annunciation) but we can no longer claim that December 25 came from pagans in the 4th century.

And also, during this season we are free to celebrate Hanukkah like Jesus did, and focus on the story of the raising of Lazarus and the importance of family and spending time celebrating family and time with family, as we find Jesus including in Hanukkah and looking forward to the reunion of our lovedones serving over seas or not able to join us, or sepperated by death and look forward to the reunions when deployment is over or when we can get together, or the resurection of our sleeping loved ones. We have so much to celebrate this time of year.

[Steve Billiter]

Right, the birth of Jesus means everything. I just may not connect it to Dec. 25.If I'm invited somewhere on Christmas that I can take Jesus to, then I will go! Historical facts cannot be denied. The papacy thought to make Sunday the Sabbath so long ago that for much of the world it is now a solidified tradition, and more.

[Steve Billiter]

Thanks Catherine for the quote, very timely!