"Keeping the Christ in Christmas"

[Steve Billiter]

Sounds like no real salvation theology to me!

[Kevin H]

When someone says:

"I don't keep December 25 because it was pagan in orgin from the 4th century AD."

we run into problems

1.) we are using out dated and thus incorrect information, since it is older and comes from Jewish tradition of Isaac being born around this time and wanting to make Isaac a type met in the antitype of Jesus.

2.) As we study the ancient tablets and discover the Canaanites keeping the feasts of the land that we find in the Bible long before Abraham was born, we would have to use this argument against the Biblical feasts. (Some respond that the feasts must have come from Noah and that's why the Canaanites were keeping them; however the feasts were tied to the agracultrual cycle of that small piece of land, thus hard to make as universal as Noah would have had). So sadly Passover, first frutis, the Day of Atonement etc. have histories that look like the traditional 4th century Christmas came from the pagans belief.

I hope I don't hijack this thread on this point. All I'm saying is that we need to update our knowlege on how we got Christmas on December 25, and also have to be careful with the paganism otherwise we will have argued away the feasts of the land and condem the Bible.

[teresaq]

I just read this in Temperance, by Ellen White:

Quote:

Intemperance Increased by Holidays.--Drunkenness, rioting, violence, crime, murder, come as the result of man selling his reason. The numerous holidays increase the evils of intemperance. These holidays are no help to morality or to religion. On them men spend in drink the money that should be used to supply the necessities of their families; and the liquor sellers reap their harvest. {Te 30.1}

When drink is in, reason is out. This is the hour and power of darkness, when all crime becomes possible, and the whole human machinery is controlled by a power from beneath, when soul and body are brought under the control of passion. And what can stay this passion? What can hinder it? These souls have no certain anchorage. Holidays are leading them on to temptation; for on a holiday many think that it is their privilege, because it is a holiday, to do as they please. --Manuscript 17, 1898. Temperance, p. 30.

and i am old enough to know how so very, very true this is!!

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

I just read this in Temperance, by Ellen White:

Quote:

Intemperance Increased by Holidays.--Drunkenness, rioting, violence, crime, murder, come as the result of man selling his reason. The numerous holidays increase the evils of intemperance. These holidays are no help to morality or to religion. On them men spend in drink the money that should be used to supply the necessities of their families; and the liquor sellers reap their harvest. {Te 30.1}

When drink is in, reason is out. This is the hour and power of darkness, when all crime becomes possible, and the whole human machinery is controlled by a power from beneath, when soul and body are brought under the control of passion. And what can stay this passion? What can hinder it? These souls have no certain anchorage. Holidays are leading them on to temptation; for on a holiday many think that it is their privilege, because it is a holiday, to do as they please. --Manuscript 17, 1898. Temperance, p. 30.

and i am old enough to know how so very, very true this is!!

Does this mean SDA's need to ignore all holidays.

Valentines Day is coming, a secular holiday that some do put pagan roots to. St. Patricks Day,many get drunk,Memorial Day many drink to excess,4th of July is a drunken holiday for many,Labor Day is another drunk excuse holiday,Thanksgiving is also a holiday where people drink.

Do we just do away with all holidays because society abuses the days with alcohol

[GreatLakesGramma]

No, it doesn't mean SDAs should ignore all holidays, or that they should be done away with. It just means that drinkers use them as an excuse to drink more. And that the rest of us have to be more careful when driving on holidays (not that we didn't already know that).

[teresaq]

No, it doesn't mean SDAs should ignore all holidays, or that they should be done away with. It just means that drinkers use them as an excuse to drink more. And that the rest of us have to be more careful when driving on holidays (not that we didn't already know that).

i would just be saying basically the same thing you did, so yeah, essentially i would agree.

i know i avoid going out in my car on holidays.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Jehovahs Witness do not accept Jesus Christ as Creator and wonder why all the fuss about Him. I'm not even sure that they receive Him as Savior.

They do accept Christ as the one through whom Jehovah created the world. But they do not consider Christ as the co-Creator. They believe He was the first creature created by Jehovah and that He made Christ for the purpose of dying. When He was on earth' date=' He was nothing but a human being. For them it was not a divine being who died on the cross but merely a perfect man. He received divinity and immortality as a result of His obedience to the Father.

They do accept Jesus Christ as Savior but only because He was sent here by Jehovah, the primary Savior. Christ is always viewed by Jehovah Witnesses as inferior to the Father, who is the Almighty. For them Christ is "a god," and the Son of God, but never God. [/quote']

Thanks for that information, John317. I suppose getting information about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe is about as reliable as asking a Seventh Day Adventist what Seventh Day Adventists believe.

I don't think finding out what a denomination believes is near as important as finding out what the Holy Bible reveals.

Joy!

[John317]

Thanks for that information, John317. I suppose getting information about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe is about as reliable as asking a Seventh Day Adventist what Seventh Day Adventists believe.

I don't think finding out what a denomination believes is near as important as finding out what the Holy Bible reveals.

You're right on both counts. It's far more important to know what's in the Bible, I agree!!

There are JWs who don't know their organization's doctrines as well as you might expect, just like many SDAs don't, and also Mormon's. The best way to learn their beliefs is to ask to study with an "overseer" or elder. But if you do, it's best to insist on using your own Bible (not the New World Translation) and also on studying straight from the Bible rather than from one of their books or magazines. (They would be pleased if you decided to study from the 1901 edition of the American Standard Version, which the Watchtower owns the copyright to now. They prefer it because it uses the name Jehovah.)

I spent about a year and a half studying with Jehovah Witnesses just to understand their beliefs. So I went to their conventions and read everything I could get my hands on, besides meeting a man at a restaurant twice a week for several hours of Bible study. We became close friends and I learned to have real love for them. But they are so hard to reach because they can be disciplined and even disfellowshipped if they are seen reading books written by other churches. So they rarely accept any material from non-Jehovah Witnesses.

Like SDAs, they believe they have "the truth," and they feel offended to think that you believe they need to learn something from any other religion.

I actually did learn a lot from my Jehovah Witness friends. I admire them and their organization in many ways. But I also saw the "darker side" of their religion.

[LifeHiscost]

But I also saw the "darker side" of their religion.

I have a suspicion some of the darker side came through since part of my information came from an ex-Adventist turned Witness,

not to mention she was also my ex-wife. She had an uphill battle

when trying to witness to me.

Joy!

[John317]

Yes, I think you're right.

Wow, that's too bad. Sorry to hear about your ex-wife. I would be very interested in hearing how she became JW and why. Like was she well grounded in the Bible and in SDA doctrines and have a good relationship with Christ before she made the change?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Thanks for that information, John317. I suppose getting information about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe is about as reliable as asking a Seventh Day Adventist what Seventh Day Adventists believe.

I don't think finding out what a denomination believes is near as important as finding out what the Holy Bible reveals.

You're right on both counts. It's far more important to know what's in the Bible, I agree!!

There are JWs who don't know their organization's doctrines as well as you might expect, just like many SDAs don't, and also Mormon's. The best way to learn their beliefs is to ask to study with an "overseer" or elder. But if you do, it's best to insist on using your own Bible (not the New World Translation) and also on studying straight from the Bible rather than from one of their books or magazines. (They would be pleased if you decided to study from the 1901 edition of the American Standard Version, which the Watchtower owns the copyright to now. They prefer it because it uses the name Jehovah.)

I spent about a year and a half studying with Jehovah Witnesses just to understand their beliefs. So I went to their conventions and read everything I could get my hands on, besides meeting a man at a restaurant twice a week for several hours of Bible study. We became close friends and I learned to have real love for them. But they are so hard to reach because they can be disciplined and even disfellowshipped if they are seen reading books written by other churches. So they rarely accept any material from non-Jehovah Witnesses.

Like SDAs, they believe they have "the truth," and they feel offended to think that you believe they need to learn something from any other religion.

I actually did learn a lot from my Jehovah Witness friends. I admire them and their organization in many ways. But I also saw the "darker side" of their religion.

I would study salvation issues with them in a free form discussion from the Bible only. One could also prove Sunday is not the Sabbath and perhaps go into Rev.12:17 and the characteristics of the true remnant church.

I used to have a book in the early 80's that listed all the false prophecies of the Watchtower Society including Christs return in 1914, which they now explain away. According to the book, one could attempt to get a Witness out of the cult by showing the tests of a true prophet from the Bible and comparing that with the false prophecies of the Watchtower society.

I think the book was published by the Sword of the Lord Sunday outfit; but I've been unable to locate the book. This was right before I came into the Adventist church from Baptist.

[Steve Billiter]

When someone says:

"I don't keep December 25 because it was pagan in orgin from the 4th century AD."

we run into problems

1.) we are using out dated and thus incorrect information, since it is older and comes from Jewish tradition of Isaac being born around this time and wanting to make Isaac a type met in the antitype of Jesus.

2.) As we study the ancient tablets and discover the Canaanites keeping the feasts of the land that we find in the Bible long before Abraham was born, we would have to use this argument against the Biblical feasts. (Some respond that the feasts must have come from Noah and that's why the Canaanites were keeping them; however the feasts were tied to the agracultrual cycle of that small piece of land, thus hard to make as universal as Noah would have had). So sadly Passover, first frutis, the Day of Atonement etc. have histories that look like the traditional 4th century Christmas came from the pagans belief.

I hope I don't hijack this thread on this point. All I'm saying is that we need to update our knowlege on how we got Christmas on December 25, and also have to be careful with the paganism otherwise we will have argued away the feasts of the land and condem the Bible.

No, its not hijacking in my view!

I don't run into any problems by ignoring Dec. 25th. I do not accept feast days or other illogical weird "Biblical" proofs to keep (or recognize)some day, which smacks of legalism.(I am not calling you a legalist!)

There is only one holiday in the Bible thats valid now: and thats this:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Stan]

Quote:

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

If they want to keep Christmas let them do so... if one does not want to... that is fine as well.

Let every man be pursuaded in his own mind.

[Steve Billiter]

Quote:

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

If they want to keep Christmas let them do so... if one does not want to... that is fine as well.

Let every man be pursuaded in his own mind.

Absolutely, I think what Paul said covers all these so-called holy-days. Of course Paul then was speaking to Jewish converts who tried to keep the feast days for salvation. We know that Paul also kept Passover to connect Christ with Jews.

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law of Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

[Stan]

My experience with JW's is... they are often undereducated folks who like to stand up and claim they are right by condemning everyone they can.

I really do not know any significant contribution they have made to society, other then going into a windowless building and reinforcing delusionary comments on how right they are by claiming how wrong everyone else is on trivial matters.

[Guest]

Their building doesn't have any windows?

[phkrause]

My experience with JW's is... they are often undereducated folks who like to stand up and claim they are right by condemning everyone they can.

I really do not know any significant contribution they have made to society, other then going into a windowless building and reinforcing delusionary comments on how right they are by claiming how wrong everyone else is on trivial matters.

Not to agree or disagree with you, but I known adventist's that are not any different.

pk

[Guest]

But we have windows.

[John317]

Yes, Stan, that is how they project themselves to others in most situations. It's like a public persona. It comes from their trying to follow their Watchtower literature. They can be very nice, pleasant people to be around when they are among themselves and with people they consider their own. But they are taught that nobody but the Watchtower organization knows the truth.

I didn't meet any who seemed to have any curiosity or desire to learn what other Christians believe or teach. I would ask them hundreds of questions about their thinking on the Bible but they almost never asked me anything, and when I would question their doctrines, or say I didn't believe something, they would get very upset.

It might be hard to believe but it was almost a year before they asked me what I thought of anything or asked me if I "had an organization." I can't imagine SDAs doing that. I felt like they have some kind of fear of seriously looking into what others believe. And it's true-- because they're trained to think that any literature or books not published by the Watchtower organization is of the devil and could deceive them into false doctrines. So they will almost never read it.

You're also right about their not being very well educated. I wouldn't say that there are no college graduates among them, but in general the ones I knew didn't have a lot of education. My impression is that they make very few converts from among people who have studied their Bible very well or who already have a good relationship with Christ.

[Guest]

It's hard to get through to people like that.

[John317]

I would study salvation issues with them in a free form discussion from the Bible only.

You will probably have a hard time finding any of them willing to do this, at least more than a couple of times, and then once they realize you're unlikely to join them, they will cut you off as a bad prospect and a waste of time. If they go to your house to study with you, and you turn out to be a hopeless prospect, they will put your address in a book at the Kingdom Hall with instructions not to visit your residence any more.

Quote:

One could also prove Sunday is not the Sabbath

The problem here is that they believe all the explanations of the Watchtower leadership and its publications. Another problem is that they use the NWT, which really messes up the translation of Gen. 2: 1-3. It makes it sound like God is still resting on the same seventh day that he rested from in the beginning. They don't say "rested" but that He "proceeded to rest on the seventh-day." Of course there are ways of proving from Scripture (Heb. 4: 4, for instance) that this is a false translation, but they don't care about that. They believe their books.

You could prove the Sabbath to them, but it wouldn't matter. The man I studied with finally told me, "You could be right, but even if you are right about what the Bible teaches, we're still right." He meant that the Bible may appear to teach it, but they know better because they have Jehovah guiding their leaders.

The only way to have success with Jehovah Witnesses is if you first break their confidence in the Watchtower organization by showing them that the organization is a false prophet.

Quote:

and perhaps go into Rev.12:17 and the characteristics of the true remnant church.

That's a good idea but they believe they keep the commandments of God. They don't think these are the Ten Commandments but all the NT commands of God, including the prohibition against eating blood. They think the Sabbath was just for the Jews and that we're living in the seventh day. For JWs, the days of creation were long periods of time.

The JWs could ask you if your church obeys the command of God not to get mixed up in "this system of things," and if you vote or if you salute the flag or celebrate birthdays, etc. For them these are very important commands of God.

They view their leaders in Brooklyn as the testimony of Jesus, or the spirit of prophecy. They are testifying to the truth of Jesus and are the true prophet.

That's why you would first have to convince them that their organization is not telling the truth before they will begin to believe your view of Rev. 12: 17.

Quote:

I used to have a book in the early 80's that listed all the false prophecies of the Watchtower Society including Christs return in 1914, which they now explain away.

You may be thinking of 1975. That's when they used to believe that was the year that would mark the end of 6000 years since Adam was created. They expected the beginning of Armaggedon and the 1000 year rule of Christ on earth.

Most of the people who've been in the organization for a while realize that they have these "skeletons" in their closet but they don't consider them serious enough to cause them to doubt their current doctrines. They refer to it as the necessity to make "adjustments" now and then, and they don't pretend to have perfect knowledge. Their point would be that they have to be willing to change, or adjust, their views whenever the "wise and discrete slave" of Matt. 24: 45 is shown by God that a mistake has been made.

They still teach that Christ returned in 1914. That was the beginning of the heavenly rule of Christ, and from their viewpoint, the proof that Christ began to reign at that time is that WW I broke out.

They believe Christ is an invisible spirit and that He came invisibly. They think only the 144, 000 will ever see Jesus. You and I will never see Him because He's a spirit being. They get 1914 from Daniel 4: 16, 17, 25. They view the "seven times" as prophetic time-- a day for a year,so 2, 520 literal years-- and that this time period began in October of B.C.E. 607.

Quote:

According to the book, one could attempt to get a Witness out of the cult by showing the tests of a true prophet from the Bible and comparing that with the false prophecies of the Watchtower society.

That book is exactly right. But it's important to realize that the JWs are trained in how to meet critics of their organization. They have training classes once a week in how to talk to people. When they meet people who bring up the "skeletons"-- of which they have many-- they will usually give up on them and move on to "brighter prospects." They're taught not to waste time on people who seem to concentrate on those negative things of the past.

Quote:

I think the book was published by the Sword of the Lord Sunday outfit; but I've been unable to locate the book.

Yes, I know the book and have it here somewhere. At least it sounds like the one I have. It is written by Robert Morey and is called How to Answer a Jehovah's Witness. It's published by Bethany House Publishers, and is an excellent resource.

Quote:

This was right before I came into the Adventist church from Baptist.

I'm so happy the Lord led you to the Adventist church and to the truth, Steve. God bless.

I'm sorry I took this so far off topic. I just thought of this. lol

OK

[Kevin H]

No, its not hijacking in my view!

I don't run into any problems by ignoring Dec. 25th. I do not accept feast days or other illogical weird "Biblical" proofs to keep (or recognize)some day, which smacks of legalism.(I am not calling you a legalist!)

There is only one holiday in the Bible thats valid now: and thats this:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That is a good approach. Just update your history on how we got Dec. 25 and you'll do fine. I'm just worried about how I've seen soom who are militantly anti-Christmas for the popular belief that it came DIRECTLY from paganism in the 4th century (I'm sure it grew in popularity and was influenced by that event, but we already had it in place from Judaism) then they learn about the Biblical holidays and throw out the whole thing.

We are free to enjoy or not enjoy. I enjoy the season and have several CD's of Christmas music in Norwegian, memories of loved ones, my Grandmother died in December 1993 and soon afterwards learned about Hanukkah and the raising of Lazarus. Also I've enjoyed thinking about Hanukkah to rember living and working in Israel and that 2 of my favorite former girlfriends were soldiers in the Israeli Army when we were seing each other, and also the message that Hanukkah has for us for the last days. From the Scandinavian tradition Christmas Eve was the major night when we'd get together and read the Christmas story and sing and open the gifts. Chrismas day is more anticlimatic as it is the end of the season, so I don't make too much of December 25 myself.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

From the Scandinavian tradition Christmas Eve was the major night when we'd get together and read the Christmas story and sing and open the gifts.

That was the German tradition also that my family carried on. Christmas Day was a day to enjoy visiting and having a nice dinner.

[Kevin H]

Yes, same for our tradition