Nicodema Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I just had a really peculiar thought while looking at, of all things, the wrapper on a batch of Huggies™ baby diapers. It shows the picture of a baby sitting there and nearby is an image of Mickey Mouse floating near the baby. Maybe I'm onto something here or maybe this is how ludicrous fanaticisms get started, but all of a sudden I started thinking ... all these "characters" to which a child is introduced, each with their own personality, mythology, story, etc. attached to them, are like "friends" they get attached to in their childhood before they even ever have a chance to choose about any of it. Before they even get old enough to tell reality from fantasy, these "people" are part of their life, passing on their values to them. Pagan godforms and spirits conjured for communication and servitor functions also have their own name, appearance, personality, mythology, story, etc. Might not all these plethora of children's characters likewise be "familiar spirits"? For of a certainty by the time they are old enough to start their "ABCs" they are as "familiar" with them as with members of their own families, and in some cases even moreso. Am I off my rocker here? Or am I onto something? Just wondering. I know Disney's philosophy is rather different from that of Jesus Christ. Not knocking Disney or going fanatical here ... just saying ... it's different. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted February 11, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 11, 2005 Not exactly what you are saying Nico, but it also makes me wonder how we can expect children to believe God is real when they are introduced to all the characters that obviously are imaginery. We are told children can tell the difference between fact and fantasy - but I wonder how a young mind would see why God (Who is not seen) should be thought of differently from all these other obviously unreal entities. I hope I am expressing myself adequately here. It just seems crucial that at the time we want children to develop the basis of a lifetime faith, we cloud the waters of their perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 I think you are quite clear Nan. I see it this way... God : unseen; Santa Clause : seen God : unseen; easter bunny : seen God : unseen; cupid : seen God : unseen; twinkle little star : seen These are all things that babies are exposed to as "real" concepts before even our Mighty Father in heaven who answers our prayers. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottie Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Oh, yes, children can tell the difference between reality and fantasy...just as well as adults who perceive the characters on television shows as real, but discuss them as if they are real. What we take into our minds has a reality in it that is hard to define. Is Barney real? He sure looks real to me, not even a drawing which may be explained away. But to little ones...how can we explain fantasy to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: I think you are quite clear Nan. I see it this way... God : unseen; Santa Clause : seen God : unseen; easter bunny : seen One thing atheists are VERY fond of doing is equating God with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Meaning the idea of God to them is equally superstitious childish fantasy nonsense. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: We are told children can tell the difference between fact and fantasy - but I wonder how a young mind would see why God (Who is not seen) should be thought of differently from all these other obviously unreal entities. Nan- My wife, an elementary teacher, tells me that a child up to the age of 8 years of age can NOT tell the difference between fact and fantasy. And I have had the experience of children who were less than 8 years of age tell me that Batman is real. I suspect that your fingers were not keeping up with your thoughts as you were typing words out...I have had that happen to me, more often than I care to remember. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 And then there's the idea of "make believe". Make believe??? That's English for pretending, isn't it? So when we make (up our minds to) believe in something we are actually "pretending" ... only that just isn't so in all cases. More confusion for the kiddies ... it's confusing enough just as an adult (e.g. when people put forward false philosophies such as "fake it till you make it" and "if you really believed, it would be so") Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 Back to my original thought though (we could develop a gazillion tangents here!) -- these pretend characters are personalities in their own right, hence "spirits," and they are well known and beloved to the children, hence "familiar." Someone might argue they are not really spirits since they have a corporeal form, but Mickey Mouse and Santa C. (for example) do NOT have corporeal form. They are concepts. People can dress UP like MM or SC and PRETEND to be them, but the "real" MM or SC has no body of its own, hence, is a spirit. So what do you think of this notion? Has it merit or should I just forget about it? I'm not asking if you think "most people" would agree with it. We all know truth is never popular, especially when it asks us to go against the flow (I'm wrestling with that in my own life in a different area right now...) What I'm asking is, does an idea of this nature have spiritual merit or is it the product of disordered thinking and ought to be discarded? What are your thoughts? Please back up your verdict with scripture and/or whatever else you have, OK, so I can understand what goes into it. (And please recognize this is NOT about judging people who share make-believe or Disney with their kids. God is still on His throne last I checked.) Thanks. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 Anyone? Is everyone afraid to discuss this for some reason? Or do folks just really not know? I was intimately involved with Satan for nearly two decades, I could use some help parsing out just how far I'm supposed to take ideas that come to me from a Christian standpoint. You don't spend that long with the evil one and come out unchanged or unaltered. Half the time I think my mind is not even my own. The other half, I'm afraid of being a fanatic. I really need serious help with discernment, and if my church family won't help me, who will? On the other hand, if you all seriously just don't know, just say so -- please don't try to fill in gaps unless you know for certain you are speaking from within the Holy Spirit... OK I will shut up now... and stop bothering everyone. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 14, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2005 Very much just my own ideas and opinions - informed by scripture, reflection and experience, but still pretty subjective. Do these characters have a spiritual (i.e. non-corporeal, conceptual) existence? Yep. Your decription of the 'real' Mickey Mouse and Santa Clause reminded me of Plato: all the people dressing up, and even the Mickey Mouse cartoons, are only pale reflections on the cave wall of the ideal form of Mickey Mouse! But are they malevolent spirits, or covers for other kinds of entities? I think not. I'm worried about their messages of consumerism and self-centredness, but not that they're paths into spiritism etc. As to real and unreal, most child development theories I've read suggest that the concepts are difficult to sort out until about age 5 or so (depending on the child) - and that even if a child can intellectually and verbally make the distinction, s/he may not make it emotionally and intuitively (hence the need to be very careful with scary movies, or even emotionally scarring ones like Bambi and the Lion King for very little people). I don't think it's a problem that we let kids find out that some things live in stories but not in our world: we do the same with models of the atom in chemistry! But certainly *showing* them the reality of God in our lives from birth is crucial. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockey Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I don't know the answer, but I would like to understand more. I guess my first question would be: What is the definition of a spirit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Quote: Anyone? Is everyone afraid to discuss this for some reason? Or do folks just really not know? I would fall into the just not knowing. My gut reaction is no, though I'd avoid a lot of make-believe because of the reasons cited by others. I have nothing to back me up, just that my gut reaction is no, they are not spirits, but that doesn't mean that I let my kids who have a difficult time with reality vs make believe deal much with them. sorry. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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