Moderators John317 Posted June 28, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 28, 2011 Church leaders say "We're Sorry": http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92 Thank you for posting this. It is good to see. Our church has done the right thing in making this apology. Many in our church in Europe were certainly in the wrong, yet we also need to remember the many SDAs who suffered hardship and even death rather than go against what they knew to be right. In this instance, the SDA Reform Movement proved to be right. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 28, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 28, 2011 .... our professed SDA leadership have given up their aversion to Roman Catholicism... Speaking of which, it is worth noting that the Andrews Study Bible does not identify the Roman Catholic Church as the little-horn of Daniel 7 and 8 or 11, nor does it identify the Catholic Church or the papacy as the fulfillment of prophecy in Rev. 13, 14 to 19. The closest it comes to identifying the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies is found in the comments at Rev. 13: 1-7, where it merely says, "Protestant scholars through the centuries have identified this beast [the earth beast] with the papacy of the Middle Ages." Notice it does not even say whether the commentators of the Andrews Study Bible agree with the Protestant scholars on the identity of the papacy. QUESTION: Given the beliefs of the SDA church as reflected in the writings of Ellen White as well as in the SDA Bible Commentary, why does the Andrews Study Bible neglect to speak clearly about the identity of the Catholic Church and the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 QUESTION: Given the beliefs of the SDA church as reflected in the writings of Ellen White as well as in the SDA Bible Commentary, why does the Andrews Study Bible neglect to speak clearly about the identity of the Catholic Church and the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation? Good question. Also we never hear anything about that, or any part of the three angels' messages from the pulpit anymore. At least not in this part of the world. And haven't for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 28, 2011 Members Share Posted June 28, 2011 Good question. Also we never hear anything about that, or any part of the three angels' messages from the pulpit anymore. At least not in this part of the world. And haven't for many years. I agree Richard, but I must say that Doug Batchelor, Shawn Boonstra, and a few others that are considered more as evangelists definitely do have that in there sermons. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 28, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 28, 2011 Bacchiocchi, in reference to Revelation 1:10 "I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...", argues that the "Lord's day", referred to in this text, is one of three things. Either it refers to it being a weekly sunday, or an easter sunday, or it refers to it being at the time of Chrst's second coming--the parousia. (See p.122-23 of his book) Mrs. White says about Revelation 1:10: "'I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...' The Lord's day is the seventh-day, the Sabbath of creation. On the day that God sanctified and blessed, Christ signified 'by His angel unto His servant John' things that must come to pass before the close of the world's history..." Testimonies, Vol.6,p.128.5 "The Lord's day mentioned by John was the Sabbath, the day on which Jehovah rested after the great work or creation, and which He blessed and sanctified because He had rested upon it." The Sanctified Life, p.74.4. In the 1977 edition of From Sabbath to Sunday, Bacchiocchi states that his viewpoints "differ radically" from the traditional position of the SDA church. But in the 1979 edition, he states that his viewpoints "differ somewhat" from the traditional position of the SDA church. His arguments did not change one bit. So it must be the traditional position of the SDA church that has changed. What is the professed SDA church's position on Revelation 1:10? In the book called, THE SABBATH IN SCRIPTURE AND HISTORY, published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association in 1982, they state: quote, "... the phrase 'the Lord's day' in Revelation 1:10... More attention should be given to the possibility that the phrase refers to an annual resurrection celebration." p.127.8. Truely, our professed SDA church has changed their position on the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation 1:10. To them it no longer means, unquestionably, the Seventh-day Sabbath, but now it could mean easter! Truely, they are working to be just like the world and to give up God's true Sabbath for sunday. Bacchiocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:16,17, says that Paul was warning against those who promote the moral law Sabbath as being an indispensable aid to Christian perfection. He also states that Paul was saying that the Sabbath was a shadow. (see p.356.4 and 369.3) Mrs. White says, "The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government." 1 S.M.239-40. Then Baccihocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:14-16, says: "In this case Paul is warning against the observance of yearly, monthly, weekly, and holy days in general including the moral Sabbath." p.360.7. On p.163.2 Bacchiocchi calls the moral Sabbath a Jewish institution and on p.368.2 he calls it ceremonial. What error and deception! Why did the professed SDA leaders allow him to promote this book in SDA churches? Why did they allow him to remain a professor at our Andrews University, and to teach our future SDA ministers? Why did they allow him to deceive our people? I think this deserves our close attention. Thanks for pointing these things out to us. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: RLH Good question. Also we never hear anything about that, or any part of the three angels' messages from the pulpit anymore. At least not in this part of the world. And haven't for many years. I agree Richard, but I must say that Doug Batchelor, Shawn Boonstra, and a few others that are considered more as evangelists definitely do have that in there sermons. They also have something else in common: Independent Ministries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 28, 2011 Members Share Posted June 28, 2011 They also have something else in common: Independent Ministries. Good point Richard. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10? WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 1, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 1, 2011 What Jesuits are good at is suggesting doubts. Their goal is to just cause people to entertain doubts-- about everything, and especially about the truth. They realize that if people merely entertain those doubts long enough, they will sooner or later reap a harvest. We are not encouraged by our Saviour to cherish doubts and fears and distressing forebodings; these bring no relief to the soul and should be rebuked rather than praised. We may have joy unspeakable and full of glory. Ev. 180 Those who are perpetually talking doubts and demanding additional evidence to banish their cloud of unbelief do not build on the Word. Their faith rests on circumstances; it is founded in feeling. But feeling, be it ever so pleasing, is not faith. God's Word is the foundation upon which our hopes of heaven must be built. {HP 106.2} If we have scattered darkness, if we have accumulated rubbish and hoarded doubts, if we have planted seeds of doubt and discouragement in the minds of others, may God help us to see our sin. We cannot afford to drop a single word of doubt, for it will germinate and grow and bring forth a bitter harvest. We should take heed to the exhortation, "Be ye holy in all manner of conversation" (1 Peter 1:15). One seed of doubt sown, and it is beyond the power of man to kill it. God alone can pluck it from the soul. . . . {HP 106.4} Men, prompted by Satan, raise doubts as to the truth of God's Word, and exercise their independent judgment. They choose darkness rather than light at the peril of their souls; for God does not propose to remove every objection against his truth which the carnal heart can offer. The mysteries of the Word of God remain such forever to those who refuse to accept the precious rays of light which would illuminate their darkness. {3SP 13.1} Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10? WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley. I guess there will always be those in the church who cannot see the truth even when it is plain as day. sky :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Overaged Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10? WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley. I guess there will always be those in the church who cannot see the truth even when it is plain as day. sky But it's not "as plain as day;" and I am sick of people saying it is when it isn't and when proof is no really all there. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 What more evidence do you want when it is staring at you right in the face? sky :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: RLH They also have something else in common: Independent Ministries. Good point Richard. The "irregular lines" you mean? sky :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 2, 2011 Members Share Posted July 2, 2011 Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10? WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley. You make a good point. I'm guessing your a SB fan? I've really liked every book of his I've read and not one of them has lead me to believe that I should leave the Adventist church. And as far as I can tell of all those that I know that have left not one has said it was because of SB, its been more because of the bickering that they see within the church, of members coming up with stuff like this. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 2, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 2, 2011 >>> Stan & pk, as our professed SDA leadership have given up their aversion to Roman Catholicism And they are even reading the SOP on how to deal with Catholics... and your statement is way overstated.. I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people. I'm glad our General Conference president doesn't agree with that idea, but I have heard it often. I called about 10 churches close to Loma Linda and asked the secretaries and pastors how often they preached on the Investigative Judgment and the Three Angels Messages, and I only found one church which said they studied and spoke of those things fairly often. One pastor I talked with told me that he didn't even believe in the Investigative Judgment. Another well-known pastor told me that he didn't know for sure what happened in heaven on Oct. 22, 1844. Still another well-known SDA pastor said that he didn't believe that the Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon or that the Sabbath would ever be a test. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Overaged Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10? WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley. You make a good point. I'm guessing your a SB fan? I've really liked every book of his I've read and not one of them has lead me to believe that I should leave the Adventist church. And as far as I can tell of all those that I know that have left not one has said it was because of SB, its been more because of the bickering that they see within the church, of members coming up with stuff like this. Actually; no. I am not an "SB Fan" at all. I don't like his writings much. But even at that, when things are said that there may not be a basis for, I feel bound to say something. The whole Jesuit thing has been blown out of proportion, so that now, people would never recognize one if they saw one. They [Jesuits] would laugh at threads like this, and the stuff said about SB. it's kinda like the devil gettin everyone to believe the devil has a pitchfork and horns and a forked tail/tongue. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Still another well-known SDA pastor said that he didn't believe that the Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon or that the Sabbath would ever be a test. This i would have no trouble believing as I have seen similar things here in Canada too. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 2, 2011 Members Share Posted July 2, 2011 I really appreciate your posts on this even more OA. It shows that you have no bais one way or the other about Dr. SB. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people. This was the sentiment under Neal Wilson's leadership - and published in the Indianapolis Star in July 1990, when that city hosted the GC Session. Shirley Burton, the GC spokesperson was quoted describing the "anti-Catholic" stance as pertaining to a 'small fringe group' only; no longer part of SDA mainstream. The group had been distributing an abridged version of the Great Controversy in downtown Indianapolis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I've really liked every book of his I've read and not one of them has lead me to believe that I should leave the Adventist church. The role of Jesuits is not to empty the churches but to sow confusion in them. To introduce a mixed multitude, even increasing membership, but diluting truth with specious fables, so the people are unsure of their foundations. Deep Bible study is passé. "If we can't understand, Jesus will tell us in heaven". "It's a mystery. Don't worry, be happy." "Either...or" doctrine is fine with them. Keep the people amused, happy, fed, a good social club. Encourage mingling of the youth, imprudent marriages, soft-pedal calls to repentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 2, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people. This was the sentiment under Neal Wilson's leadership - and published in the Indianapolis Star in July 1990, when that city hosted the GC Session. Shirley Burton, the GC spokesperson was quoted describing the "anti-Catholic" stance as pertaining to a 'small fringe group' only; no longer part of SDA mainstream. The group had been distributing an abridged version of the Great Controversy in downtown Indianapolis. Yes, I'm aware of that. That was one of the incidents I was thinking of when I wrote what I did above. It is ironic that now it's Neal Wilson's son who plans for the distribution of the entire book, Great Controversy. I believe he's right to do it. In 1975-6, I knew and worked with Neal Wilson's father, and I'm positive he didn't agree with the view of Shirley Burton. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people. I believe you are right about that Gordon. I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people. This was the sentiment under Neal Wilson's leadership - and published in the Indianapolis Star in July 1990, when that city hosted the GC Session. Shirley Burton, the GC spokesperson was quoted describing the "anti-Catholic" stance as pertaining to a 'small fringe group' only; no longer part of SDA mainstream. The group had been distributing an abridged version of the Great Controversy in downtown Indianapolis. There's a right way and a right time and a right place for everything. Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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