Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Share Posted January 20, 2010 Complaints about the OP to go to Abelisle. LOL That's what happens when you play with existentialism. The OP's question was moot from the start. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Hey all ... I wasn't going to say anything but oh well ... you've talked me into it. This thread has given me a good laugh. I quoted myself and it got deleted !! How is it that my own words are not 'original' !!! Okay. I don't mean to criticize the moderator. I suspect when he saw the quotes that he didn't realize WHO I was quoting. !!!! I just thought it was funny Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2010 Yes, Satan can do good things, but I don't know of any good that he's actually done since he fell into sin and rebellion. He may appear to do good, perhaps, but it is invariably for an evil, selfish purpose. At least as far as I know. For instance, he is persistent and persevering, which is usually a good characteristic, but Satan uses all that energy to advance his kingdom of death. It's true that atheists do some good things and also that they can be ethical and kind. Much of that can be explained by the fact that many of them grew up believing in Christ at one time. They also live in the world in which they can't help but learn values that resulted from religious beliefs. Most atheists don't live in accordance with their intellectual convictions-- they are still living according to the morality that grows out of religions that they claim they reject. For instance, some will say that we should love everyone, but that is a belief that comes from Christ and from other religions, not from a universe without religious faith. It takes a long time for the behavior and the emotions to follow the lead of the mind, and it only does it after a great struggle against the morality they learned as children. Some excellent studies have shown that atheists do good only when it is to their benefit and rarely when it is not. Athiesits have often sacrificed themselves for a cause that they believe in, but they almost never sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their enemy. Christ taught us to be kind and loving even to those who do us harm, and many Christians obey that commandment. There's nothing in atheism-- no atheistic teacher or philosopher-- that teaches this. Fredrich Neitszche, the father of "modern atheism," turned Christ's commandments on their head and taught just the opposite. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 20, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 20, 2010 MODERATOR POST... ONCE AGAIN - PLEASE READ. AND THINK BEFORE YOU POST. I AM SHOUTING BECAUSE NOBODY SEEMS TO HAVE NOTICED MY PRIOR POST. (CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?) AS PAM HAS JUST REMINDED EVERYONE, THERE IS TO BE NO QUOTING HERE. (Thanks Pam...) And if I may also more gently suggest, it seems some have not read, or thought about, much of the rest of the topic before they blindly react. This forum requires you to actually think before you post. Thanks for your attention and cooperation... Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I apologize for breaking the rule. It wasn't until Pam jabbed me that I understood this other facet of it. My ignorance stems from the "original thought" idea. I thought we just weren't supposed to quote the Bible or SOP or other religious writers in defense of our thinking. I didn't know the prohibition extended to quoting the part of the previous post we were responding to. Or does "original thoughts" mean that we're not supposed to be using the other posts as a springboard for our own thoughts? Sorry, I just don't know the etiquette here. But, to make up for it, I leave you with a fairly original thought which has no relationship to anything I've seen on clubadentist yet. Sasquatch tracks aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Would I still be a moral person? Probably not. Why should I be? It's not like what I did would matter. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2010 No, I would not be any different today in either personality or behavior if I found out there was no God. The reason is that whether there is a God or not, I have found that following the NT teachings of Christ lead to the good life on this earth. It makes good sense & "works" whether its promises of heaven are true or not. I've found this out by persoanl experience and not by just hearing or reading about it. The answer to your second question, about murder, is that without God, it would not be wrong in any absolute sense but it would still be wrong from the viewpoint of human society. Apart from God there would be no absolute moral law by which to measure right and wrong. Yet, because people are influenced by the values of the society in which they grow up, most people would still feel in their "conscience" that it's wrong to murder; but if someone did not have such feelings, they would be no more "wrong" than those who do feel that murder is "wrong." That, however, would only be a subjective judgment and not an objective one. Your third question asks if some of us are being "good" simply because of the expectation of heaven. My answer is yes, of course. I think most believers begin their Christian walk in that way, but as we mature spiritually we should have more profound reasons for living and behaving as we do. The Bible doesn't condemn people for being motivated by hopes of heaven, but God does expect us to grow so that they are not the only reason for doing good. Our reason should be to help our fellow human beings. However, if we posit that there is no God, I don't believe there's any way to show that someone who doesn't help other people is wrong in any absolute sense. In that case, all we can say is that the person is anti-social or that his acts violate society's laws and therefore should be punished. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Share Posted January 20, 2010 I would be the same person I am now. And I'm tired of Karl saying I "jabbed" him. Stop it. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 If there was no God (and the atheists, and evolutionists were right)and there was no future reward or punishment and life as we now know it was pointless,meaningless,and completely existential, why would I not want to: cheat on my income taxes,have sex with as many girls as possible, disrespect my parents, get loaded as often as possible,inflict greater hurt on those who have hurt me first,gather to myself possessions without having to pay for them,lie about others in order to gain some sort of advantage,eliminate anyone who stands in the way of my prosperity and happiness,ect...? "I don't wanna work, I just wanna play in the sun all day!" What are they going to do,kill me? I would quote another Jewish guy who had the same ideas as me (copycat!)but I think it's against the rules.In other words, I'd probably be a liberal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outta Here Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 A couple of questions directed to no one in particular, but rather to those who are in the group who believe that if there were no God, then they would act as immorally as they wished: Do you act morally now because God directs moral behavior, or do you act morally because you feel it is the right thing to do? Outside of God's moral code for behavior, have you any empathy at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 21, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks all for your thoughts. Great question, Alex (and I've been really enjoying your presence and contributions here). I don't believe I would change my actions or the internal moral compass that dictates them if I knew there were no God: I already do things (or avoid doing them) on the basis of whether they enhance the sum total of human happiness or misery rather than in hope of reward or to avoid punishment. In thinking about morality I find Kohlberg's framework very helpful, and in that framework a morality that is all about gaining reward or avoiding punishment is a very low level of moral reasoning (Level 2 of 6, if I recall correctly). Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 21, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2010 I think the Bible shows that God realizes that some people need rules and threats and promises of prosperity in order to do right. He understands that, and He is willing to meet us where we are. Most "baby Christians" start out that way. I know I did. Now, even if I were to find out that there is no God, I wouldn't change. But as I see it today, that is God's doing, and not the way I would be if I hadn't first accepted the Bible is true. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I think that if I did not believe in God that I would probably not subscribe to any sort of moral code, even if I "felt" that there were such things as right and wrong, because I would dismiss them as evolutionary flukes and pointless rules that religion has imposed on society. I would probably be a hedonistic anarchist. If not, I would be a dishonest atheist. If in the end, nothing matters... why pretend it matters now? Which is what makes Truth so appealing... Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outta Here Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Interesting thoughts. Some more questions: Why would you continue living? If there is no right or wrong, and if nothing in the end mattered and nothing mattered in the here and now, then why even bother with hedonistic anarchy? Wouldn't that, too, be a complete waste of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Good point. The only reason I can think of to live is to further evolution by reproducing as much as possible. Of course, I would probably be stuck between that and having no children because bringing children into an utterly pointless existence would be cruel... except without a moral code, nothing is cruel. Also, I suppose, I would probably just think, "Well, as long as I'm here, I might as well draw some fleeting pleasure out of the whole thing." I think that's basically what hedonism is about... nothing matters anyway, so we might as well make the most of it and try to have as much pleasure as possible before we turn back into mud. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outta Here Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Exactly, CoAspen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Yes, family, friends, and the simple "joy" (which is caused by chemical reactions) of life are all utterly meaningless if there is no ultimate purpose in which at least one thing you do has the minutest significance even after our planet is destroyed. Sure, you CAN enjoy those things without believing in God, but by thinking that there is some sort of point or fulfillment in those things you are really creating your own imaginary ultimate purpose, in which case you might as well be a theist, because at least it makes sense for theists to believe in "purpose". Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outta Here Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 CoAspen, I so very much appreciate your post. It resonates with an idea I've been thinking on for the past 6 years or so: "The ultimate purpose would be to enjoy the life you have!" Even though this thread is about "what if...there were no God", I truly believe that our sole purpose is to enjoy life, that ideally, God wants nothing more than for us to truly enjoy the good life He has prepared for us. I even created a term for this: euanthropism--living a good, human life as God intended us to do. He does not ask us to be anything more (or less) than human. And He does provide a great list of guidelines for us to follow to find the ultimate happiness in life. It's not about sinning or pointing out one another's faults. Life is about finding the road to happiness and living it as He intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I'm not saying that I'm only "good" for the rewards... but if there was no God, there would be no moral code higher than myself. So I wouldn't need to be "good" because I would determine "good", and "good" would be what's "good for me", which is pretty much how things operate unless we are either conditioned by society to maintain a survivable level of "goodness" or believe that there is a God who is good. To just enjoy life and be good because that is what is most happy for us even though it won't matter in a million years... just sounds sentimental to me. And you don't find much sentimentality in a godless world. Since we don't know what animals are thinking, what we determine their motives to be in living in relative harmony depend on our worldview. While we might say that animals are good and happy because they work together and seem to enjoy things, others might say that animals cooperate so that they can just survive because we live in a big scary pointless world. I'm not saying I disagree completely with either of you... but there really would be no ultimate purpose, especially not one as happy-sounding as "just enjoy life". Maybe more like "the Big Crunch" or whatever the theory of The End is these days. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 21, 2010 Members Share Posted January 21, 2010 I didn't think the OP asked or insinuated that as part of the idea at all. But if it did, why am I serving God? I'm not sure I am. I'm an altruistic person by nature. And NO, I don't want to discuss what "nature" means!!!!! Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 22, 2010 Members Share Posted January 22, 2010 I tend to agree with you dgrimm. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 But if they go to heaven, then they believed in God... right? So that doesn't really have anything to do with "what if you didn't believe in God". Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2010 The notion that there is no morality without Christianity simply does not survive an open-eyed look around... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Sure there can be morality without Christianity... just not without any sort of belief in a higher power. If there is nobody or nothing to determine morality other than ourselves, there's no morality at all. If we happen to not kill each other, it's because we are intelligent enough to know that killing people will probably end in some sort of punishment, not because we believe that it's wrong to murder other people. Presented with the choice of murdering someone or being killed ourselves, we'll take care of ourselves. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2010 Here's Kohlberg's scheme that I mentioned earlier: Level 1 (Pre-Conventional) 1. Obedience and punishment orientation (How can I avoid punishment?) 2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?) Level 2 (Conventional) 3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (Social norms) (The good boy/good girl attitude) 4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality) Level 3 (Post-Conventional) 5. Social contract orientation 6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience) Can you see, Sivart, that your response above assumes that everyone in the world is operating at Stages 1 and 2 (i.e. Level 1) of this hierarchy of forms of moral reasoning? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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