Should Adventists own guns?

[Cosmin M.]

Thank you. It's a flash animation converted into a .gif image.

[aldona]

I think I have learned two things from this thread:

1. You don't need a gun (or any other physical weapon) to inflict violence or harm. Words will do just fine.

2. There is a fundamental difference between the views of US and non-US people on the right to carry weapons, which will never be bridged. To a US citizen, carrying a gun seems to be as normal as wearing underpants. To a European (or Australian, or person from many other parts of the world), an Adventist carrying a gun is as shocking an idea (if not more), as an Adventist carrying a bottle of whisky or a crack pipe, hence Cosmin's analogy. This is simply because in most of these places it is not seen as normal, expected, necessary or desirable for ordinary citizens to have weapons.

Hence, US and non-US people will continue to debate this issue, and will continue to fail to convince each other, as they are coming from completely different contexts and realities.

aldona

[SivartM]

1. You don't need a gun (or any other physical weapon) to inflict violence or harm. Words will do just fine.

"Oh, but that's not 'real' violence."

I agree completely, aldona.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: aldona

1. You don't need a gun (or any other physical weapon) to inflict violence or harm. Words will do just fine.

"Oh, but that's not 'real' violence."

I agree completely, aldona.

If you take a good look 99.9% of those involved in this thread did not name call or pass judgment on those that they disagreed with.

Most people that own guns are responsible individuals. They are hardly gathering at the OK corral for a shootout.So far it is a free country,those opposed have a simple solution.Don't have one.

But remember if you ever are in a position to need police intervention they bring guns and will use them.

Do you have a moral right to call and expect someone to do something you think is morally wrong?

Our sons were taught responsible behavior regarding guns as most rational parents teach their children.

Many people defend "responsible" drinking of alcohol. I would much rather have a car in the oncoming lane have a gun in the back seat as I would have a bottle of beer in one hand or having consumed alcohol before getting behind the wheel.

[Guest]

Amen Bonnie

[GreatLakesGramma]

I would much rather have a car in the oncoming lane have a gun in the back seat as I would have a bottle of beer in one hand or having consumed alcohol before getting behind the wheel.

Yeah, me too. Unless the other driver was prone to road rage.

Friends of mine from church were passing through Texas on vacation. They were stopped at a red light, when the driver of another vehicle also stopped at the light got out of his truck, walked over to another truck stopped at the light, shot the driver of the other truck, and got back in his own truck. This did not give them a very good impression of Texas.

[Kountzer]

I don't think it can be proven in the bible that owning a gun is wrong, for adventists or anyone else. I've met at least 3 adventist police officers.

I know a few adventists that like to go deer hunting.

I know a rather stern sda elder who has a home in a neighborhood that has gotten worse, who says he has a gun. And he said if someone bothers him or his family, he would not hesitate to use it.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I would much rather have a car in the oncoming lane have a gun in the back seat as I would have a bottle of beer in one hand or having consumed alcohol before getting behind the wheel.

Yeah, me too. Unless the other driver was prone to road rage.

Friends of mine from church were passing through Texas on vacation. They were stopped at a red light, when the driver of another vehicle also stopped at the light got out of his truck, walked over to another truck stopped at the light, shot the driver of the other truck, and got back in his own truck. This did not give them a very good impression of Texas.

I think that would probably get my attention to. Whether it is a vehicle,alcohol or guns that are in the wrong hands,someone can get hurt.

[missionlady]

Very interesting thread. I was very impressed to see so many open-minded Adventists. These days it seems as though the word tolerence means "you tolerate me, but I don't have to tolerate you". It also seems sometimes to mean that not only do we allows others to have their own opinions and do their own thing, (I agree with these previous two as long as it is not hurting or unjustly restricting others), but they add to it that we must condone and praise and join in with people that are not just doing things differently, but actually doing wrong.

Cosmin is young and not from America, so it would be expected that he would think differently than many of us Americans (When I was young I used to think very much that same way.)

I would not want to encounter an unarmed person that has an uncontrolled temper. He or she would still be dangerous, even without a weapon. Some of the issue discussed here seems to have to do with self-control.

A government that allows it's citizens to be armed will be afraid to make slaves of it's people and the reverse is also true. If they disarm their people they will not be afraid to make slaves of their people.

I'm very glad that Cosmin was not offended. The person that so vehemently defended him here is part of what keeps me away from here. I get enough grief elsewhere, I don't need to have someone at my throat for giving my opinion here.

So with my thoughts expressed and friendly greetings to all, I'm off to other places.

God Bless!

Missionlady

_______________________________________________

People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

[Guest]

I'm very glad that Cosmin was not offended. The person that so vehemently defended him here is part of what keeps me away from here. I get enough grief elsewhere, I don't need to have someone at my throat for giving my opinion here.

Amen sister, I know what you mean. HAPPY SABBATH.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I would not want to encounter an unarmed person that has an uncontrolled temper. He or she would still be dangerous, even without a weapon.

Very, very true. My best friend was married to a dangerously abusive man. Once he started to choke her, but she cried out to Jesus, and the man was thrown by invisible hands against the bedroom wall and held there, struggling to get free, cursing and screaming at her, for most of the night. She got in bed and went to sleep. I don't think I could have.

[phkrause]

Very interesting thread. I was very impressed to see so many open-minded Adventists. These days it seems as though the word tolerence means "you tolerate me, but I don't have to tolerate you". It also seems sometimes to mean that not only do we allows others to have their own opinions and do their own thing, (I agree with these previous two as long as it is not hurting or unjustly restricting others), but they add to it that we must condone and praise and join in with people that are not just doing things differently, but actually doing wrong.

Cosmin is young and not from America, so it would be expected that he would think differently than many of us Americans (When I was young I used to think very much that same way.)

I would not want to encounter an unarmed person that has an uncontrolled temper. He or she would still be dangerous, even without a weapon. Some of the issue discussed here seems to have to do with self-control.

A government that allows it's citizens to be armed will be afraid to make slaves of it's people and the reverse is also true. If they disarm their people they will not be afraid to make slaves of their people.

I'm very glad that Cosmin was not offended. The person that so vehemently defended him here is part of what keeps me away from here. I get enough grief elsewhere, I don't need to have someone at my throat for giving my opinion here.

So with my thoughts expressed and friendly greetings to all, I'm off to other places.

God Bless!

Missionlady

_______________________________________________

People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

Excellent post missionlady, and to the point. Sorry that the underlying current here has kept you away. Because your posts are always pretty low key and should not offend anyone. But I do understand. So even though your off to other places, we welcome you back any time,if even for a split moment.

And like Richard said "Happy Sabbath".

pk

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I would much rather have a car in the oncoming lane have a gun in the back seat as I would have a bottle of beer in one hand or having consumed alcohol before getting behind the wheel.

Yeah, me too. Unless the other driver was prone to road rage.

Friends of mine from church were passing through Texas on vacation. They were stopped at a red light, when the driver of another vehicle also stopped at the light got out of his truck, walked over to another truck stopped at the light, shot the driver of the other truck, and got back in his own truck. This did not give them a very good impression of Texas.

I am sure similar and unfortunate incidents like this happen in Detroit, Benton Harbor, Battlecreek, and in Ann Arbor, and other places in other states. Violence connected with guns occurs in all 50 states.

[Kountzer]

Dispite statements to the contrary I can truthfully say that I have never really owned a gun in my life. The first and last time I held and shot a pistol was while I was enlisted in the US Coast Guard. A few months after I was out of the military I fired a few practice rounds with a friend who owned a pistol, at a nearby range. This was back in the early to mid '80s. I haven't touched a gun since.

There was this .22 caliber winchester rifle that my Grandfather owned. He gave it to me once, when I was a teenager, as a sort of passing on of a family heirloom thing. I took it home to my parents house. A few months later my grandparents came over and my absent minded grandfather saw his old winchester rifle in my closet, and he asked me why did I have his rifle. I told him that he gave it to me. He told me that he didn't recall such a thing, and he took his rifle back. I have long since forgiven him for that. I bring it up because those few months that rifle sat in my closet is the only time I've 'owned' a gun.

A side note to this: my grandparents helped raise the son of one of my female 1st cousins. This guy is my 2nd cousin. My grandparents became attached to this cousin, and my grandfather gave him the rifle as a family heirloom. This cousin got to keep it, and still has it. Go figure, lol.

DB

[Cosmin M.]

But adding on to what I was saying earlier, I like guns, I mean, I don't hate them, I just think if you have a gun, don't rely on it for protection, I like guns for hunting purposes, I would do anything to have one of these and go deer hunting with it!

[GreatLakesGramma]

I am sure similar and unfortunate incidents like this happen in Detroit, Benton Harbor, Battlecreek, and in Ann Arbor, and other places in other states. Violence connected with guns occurs in all 50 states.

Indeed it does, but they do not live in an urban area where they are regularly exposed to crime and violence, and this was their first time ever being anywhere in Texas. So unfortunately, it is unlikely that anyone can ever mention Texas to one of them without this incident immediately coming to mind.

[GreatLakesGramma]

But adding on to what I was saying earlier, I like guns, I mean, I don't hate them, I just think if you have a gun, don't rely on it for protection,

If I were to have a gun, that's all it would be for. But actually, I agree with you for myself. I mentioned some threatening situations that have come up in my walks, but God has always protected me every time. When the sick raccoon followed me, then began running after me when I started to run, God sent a car along at just the right time to stop and rescue me. In fact, the ladies in the car saw the coon following me before I knew it was behind me, and slowed down, because they were concerned for my safety. It was when I made a wide loop through the intersection from one side of the road to the other, in order to head back home, right after they'd passed slowly by, that I saw the coon, walking in exactly the same path where I had walked, then turn and come straight at me. The ladies had stopped to watch for any sign that I might need their help, and when they saw me yell at the animal, throw stones at it, then run from it, they turned the car around and came after me.

Another time, right after I'd had a particularly threatening encounter with the dog, as I neared its home, praying for protection, I saw the dog in the yard where it could easily see me if it looked my way, but it just sat there, facing in the direction from which I was coming, and didn't even seem to see me.

But I'll still be relieved, and very thankful, when that dog dies.

[Kountzer]

I've never witnessed violence like that, but it could happen. It depends to an extent on where you are and where you go. These are the end times. All sorts of crazy stuff is happening, in divers places. Texas is definitely no exception to that.

[Woody]

Very interesting thread. I was very impressed to see so many open-minded Adventists. These days it seems as though the word tolerence means "you tolerate me, but I don't have to tolerate you". It also seems sometimes to mean that not only do we allows others to have their own opinions and do their own thing, (I agree with these previous two as long as it is not hurting or unjustly restricting others), but they add to it that we must condone and praise and join in with people that are not just doing things differently, but actually doing wrong.

Cosmin is young and not from America, so it would be expected that he would think differently than many of us Americans (When I was young I used to think very much that same way.)

I would not want to encounter an unarmed person that has an uncontrolled temper. He or she would still be dangerous, even without a weapon. Some of the issue discussed here seems to have to do with self-control.

A government that allows it's citizens to be armed will be afraid to make slaves of it's people and the reverse is also true. If they disarm their people they will not be afraid to make slaves of their people.

I'm very glad that Cosmin was not offended. The person that so vehemently defended him here is part of what keeps me away from here. I get enough grief elsewhere, I don't need to have someone at my throat for giving my opinion here.

So with my thoughts expressed and friendly greetings to all, I'm off to other places.

God Bless!

Missionlady

_______________________________________________

People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

Hi Missionlady. So good to see you again. This is Redwood (Woody). I hope you will stop by again.

[LifeHiscost]

If I was armed, I probably would have shot and killed that young man. But to this day I thank God that he protected me and the students under my watch. Even playing FPS (First Person Shooter) videogames had mw wondering, "Should I be doing this?" My rationalization was Biblical. I only killed terrorists and evil people.

As for an answer to your question - I don't know? But by not having a gun, I have one less option. Then I guess I'll just have to kill that person with my bare hands in order to protect others?

Alex (I'm a sharpshooter with a 9mm Glock)

When younger and in the Marine Corps, I had the opportunity? to ship over with four years of Annapolis and subsequent 6 years active duty. This, if I'd made the choice, would have placed me right in the middle of the Vietnam war at it's height. Since aeronautics was my secondary interest there is little doubt I would have been involved in killing innumerable people (in defense of the homeland to be sure).

Since my primary interest at that time, though barely discernible, was tending toward the Lord of glory, in retrospect both my love and self-interest in recognition and power being satisfied, I know now the prince of darkness had evil intentions. My lack of interest in personal self-discipline and conscious acknowledged repugnance of taking an oath to kill people at the behest of the authorities discretion, convinced me to turn the invitation down.

Does that mean I believe the use of arms for self defense is immoral? For me, probably yes. Especially as I viewed this Word.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40 KJV

Were a person who believes in Christ to kill another by handgun, even accidently, could they be sure they hadn't taken away that person's opportunity to meet Jesus in a saving relationship?

For practical safety, this Word told me earlier, the bearing of arms for safety is a misnomer.

"Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword." Matt 26:52 NLT

If I do refuse to pick up arms for personal safety, or even to save others, can I expect God to do for me that which I refuse to do for myself or those I love? To me it is a moot question, because I do believe God will not allow me to be tempted beyond what I am able to bear, including standing by while someone threatened my wife.

As for my own personal protection, I would have this promise placed within my soul when it is needed.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 NKJV

Joy!!

[SivartM]

My thoughts exactly, LH. :D

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

If I was armed, I probably would have shot and killed that young man. But to this day I thank God that he protected me and the students under my watch. Even playing FPS (First Person Shooter) videogames had mw wondering, "Should I be doing this?" My rationalization was Biblical. I only killed terrorists and evil people.

As for an answer to your question - I don't know? But by not having a gun, I have one less option. Then I guess I'll just have to kill that person with my bare hands in order to protect others?

Alex (I'm a sharpshooter with a 9mm Glock)

When younger and in the Marine Corps, I had the opportunity? to ship over with four years of Annapolis and subsequent 6 years active duty. This, if I'd made the choice, would have placed me right in the middle of the Vietnam war at it's height. Since aeronautics was my secondary interest there is little doubt I would have been involved in killing innumerable people (in defense of the homeland to be sure).

Since my primary interest at that time, though barely discernible, was tending toward the Lord of glory, in retrospect both my love and self-interest in recognition and power being satisfied, I know now the prince of darkness had evil intentions. My lack of interest in personal self-discipline and conscious acknowledged repugnance of taking an oath to kill people at the behest of the authorities discretion, convinced me to turn the invitation down.

Does that mean I believe the use of arms for self defense is immoral? For me, probably yes. Especially as I viewed this Word.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40 KJV

Were a person who believes in Christ to kill another by handgun, even accidently, could they be sure they hadn't taken away that person's opportunity to meet Jesus in a saving relationship?

For practical safety, this Word told me earlier, the bearing of arms for safety is a misnomer.

"Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword." Matt 26:52 NLT

If I do refuse to pick up arms for personal safety, or even to save others, can I expect God to do for me that which I refuse to do for myself or those I love? To me it is a moot question, because I do believe God will not allow me to be tempted beyond what I am able to bear, including standing by while someone threatened my wife.

As for my own personal protection, I would have this promise placed within my soul when it is needed.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 NKJV

Joy!!

Back to my original question. If your family were threatened with death or harm and the opportunity presented itself would you call 911.

Knowing they would come with guns and possibly a highly trained swat team.Their basic function is to kill if necessary.

Would you expect someone else to do what you felt was wrong?

Does this hold true for expecting someone else to possibly kill on behalf of your family?

could they be sure they hadn't taken away that person's opportunity to meet Jesus in a saving relationship?

Possibly you are a true pacifist and would not.But if you would what is the difference except you are keeping your hands clean while wanting others to do what you feel would be a sin

[LifeHiscost]

But like I said if he choose's not too one of these times, so be it, I'll still put my life in his hands.

pk

Ever think of moving to a nice country setting, PK. I'm satisfied that's something the Lord worked out in our (wife and me)life years ago. There is a statement made in the Spirit of Prophecy about a time coming when it would be impossible to move out of the city. I don't think that time is far hence.

We were given an appointment by the doctor, to see a practitioner in SF. After making the attempt to keep the appointment, of which nothing seemed to turn out right to get there on time, we came to the conclusion my wife's health was in greater danger by continuing to motor down there, than if we saw no doctor at all.

Now when we motor a little way south, I have this sensation we are traveling into hostile territory. Even in this little town where we're located, when leaving my wife for a few minutes while I parked the car at a Wal-Mart shopping center,

on returning my wife described this unusually friendly young man who sat down beside her with a little friendly conversation. How often do you see friendly young males showing friendliness to senior citizens?

Something seemed to be amiss upon our returning to the car, but I just couldn't place what it was. However after awhile her purse kept looking more naked than usual and I asked her what happened to the gilt ornament that came with the purse when it was purchased. Putting two and two together we decided to go through her purse. Fortunately we found about $60 still in her billfold. However I'm sure if I'd have been just five minutes later, likely she would have been $60 lighter.

Ah, Lord Jesus, please come quickly!

Praise!!

[LifeHiscost]

I have that much of a belief in the resurrection...

Praise the Lord!

"And Jesus said unto them.... verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Matthew 17:20 KJV

Believing in the resurrection is good. Believing in Jesus is better because He'll make sure the resurrection you'll be in is the one in which you'll stay.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I do not want a gun in my house, mainly for safety reasons. Plus, I'm not so sure I could shoot and kill someone myself, even though I do not believe it is wrong to do so in defense of innocent lives, including one's own. But I would definitely call the police and have them come on the double to do it for me, if needed.

Still, this thread has brought to mind the story of the missionaries who were killed by the Waodani in Ecuador. The movie End of the Spear was based on that story. In the movie, as missionary pilot Nate Saint prepared to take his group to make direct contact with the Waodani for the first time, when asked by his son Steve why he wouldn't take guns, he told Steve, "Son, we can't kill the Waodani. They aren't ready to die. We are."

Not that this means it's wrong to kill evil persons in defense of innocent lives. No, but I do believe we should each allow our lives to be guided by the Holy Spirit at all times and in all situations, such that if the time ever came that we must make such a choice, we would be able to discern His Spirit speaking HIS will for that time.